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Game 82: Pistons @ Knicks

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Are there many good teams or close to good teams that both value Griffin or Drummond and have crap player(s) that make similar salary that they are willing to move?

I am sure there is a website that has that available, I guess I don't know where to search.

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8 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

I don't disagree at all, but once they got Griffin, I think it got harder to pull off.

Or are you saying trading Drummond and Griffin for players with slightly shorter contracts but guys who can't actually play, because performance is essentially a negative.  Of course, a potential trading partner might also *value* crap play for the same reason.

They should trade for Josh Smith.

 

10 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

I would be fine with letting both walk if there were some way to do that.  And I think both have good value as players, simply not enough to command their salary and they don't fit what I think a realistic timeframe is for the team.

By terrible contracts, I presume you mean expirings or 2-years remaining?

A proper rebuild is 3-5 years so I am less worried about the length of any deal.  I'm more worried about moving talent away and taking back lesser players so I can lose and lose a lot.  

Kemba is a free agent this summer in Charlotte.  They needed to make a splash to increase their odds of keeping him.  I bet they would have loved to dump Batum, Williams, Zeller (2 of the 3) for Drummond.  I will take those guys back, lose another 5-8 games this year, and ask for a top 1 protected draft pick.  You probably end up with a top 4 protected but that is fine.  I don't think that is asking too much for that type of deal.

Griffin is probably a bit more problematic.  

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19 minutes ago, Deleterious said:

Hire Hinkie and let him do his thing.

Year 1 would have just finished up.  They would have been in the Zion sweepstakes.  Probably about the same timeline as waiting on bad deals to come off the books.  Except you would be coming off that time period with a couple of high draft picks already on your team.  But hey, when Reggie and Leuer expire they will have a 32 year old Griffin and a 28 year old Drummond.  So they have that going for them.

This.

14 minutes ago, Deleterious said:

There is nothing wrong waiting on Reggie and company to get off the books.  But holy ****, don't do that while being .500.  Do it sucking so you are stockpiling assets and ready to hit the ground running when those deals do expire.  

And this.

Bottom line: Don't stand in the middle of the road being mediocre for years and throw up your hands saying, "it's too hard to make moves." The GM needed to grow a pair and choose a path. That should have happened at the trade deadline. Instead we're sitting in the worst possible position in the NBA and we've just kicked the can down the road.

What we don't know is if that's truly on the GM, or if it's the direction that Gores has dictated for this organization because he refuses to sell low and wants to keep banging his head against the wall so he can feel like he's done something by squeaking into the playoffs with no real vision for the future.

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9 minutes ago, Betrayer said:

This.

And this.

Bottom line: Don't stand in the middle of the road being mediocre for years and throw up your hands saying, "it's too hard to make moves." The GM needed to grow a pair and choose a path. That should have happened at the trade deadline. Instead we're sitting in the worst possible position in the NBA and we've just kicked the can down the road.

What we don't know is if that's truly on the GM, or if it's the direction that Gores has dictated for this organization because he refuses to sell low and wants to keep banging his head against the wall so he can feel like he's done something by squeaking into the playoffs with no real vision for the future.

given the history of the pistons under gores' ownership, im stunned anyone thinks gores is learning anything.

do we need to rehash the timeline of his ownership?  the dumars year when he sold a draft pick to get rid of ben gordon and then signed josh freakin smith?  the svg trades to build around drummond, the waiving of josh smith instead of trading him for dreck, giving up a pick in the griffin deal?  the pistons have been the exact same team with the exact same plan since gores came in: get to the playoffs.  no matter what.

and like biggs said, telling svg he cant be the gm right after he signed off on the griffin trade which set this franchise's course for the next five years is not a sign of growth, imo, its a sign of vacillation and lack of committment.

yeah yeah, they didnt trade a first round pick for mike conley.  huzzah.  theyre still wedded to mediocrity as some sign of success.

the most symbolic thing the pistons could do is raise a banner next year for making the playoffs.  then their transformation into the lions will be complete.

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even though the pistons are bad, i still enjoyed the season.  i liked blake.  i liked drummond getting better.  i like watching my favorite team play my favorite sport.

i'll be psyched for the draft.  it'll be fun to watch them in the playoffs even if they get whooped.  and if they do, maybe - just maybe - it will result in the dream scenario of getting a hinkie type gm in there and begin a real rebuild to something sustainable.

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6 hours ago, 313DetroitCity said:

The only chance this team had at a top lottery pick was for Blake & Andre to sit out the season. Some of you guys seriously underestimate how bad you have to be to get a top 3 pick in the draft. 

Also - why watch this team if all you do is hate every aspect of their present and future? Honestly, it amazes me people spend time hate watching the Pistons when there is so much good basketball you can watch instead. 

On your first point, we disagree. Even a top 5 pick is better than what they wound up with and it's not that hard to have a reasonable shot at that. Certainly a better chance than they have of winning a single game in this series, that's for sure. Every single position higher in the draft increases your potential for drafting a star.

Getting playoff experience for a core (Reggie/Dre) that has no future potential and isn't going to be here when this team is relevant again does nothing for you. I'm not concerned about playoff experience for bench guys and fringe rotation players since that doesn't move the needle and those guys may not even be here either.

On your second point, I watch this team because I'm a fan. I also put my money where my mouth is and purchased season tickets for 14 years before I moved to North Carolina. Now I purchase NBA League Pass to watch them (and other games). I watch plenty of other basketball, but this is my team, I love the Pistons, and I want better for them. That's why I criticize them because they can be better if management would get their heads out of their behinds. That's also why I come here to have discussions about the path of the team and honestly, to vent my frustrations with other fans who will listen since Gores probably wouldn't answer my calls or he'd be too drunk to understand. I don't come here to put on rosy glasses and ignore the issues.

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Somehow the team we are all scared to play in the 1st round became who they are without tanking for 5 years. They were what everyone would call "a mediocre team going nowhere" and turned things around with a 15th pick and smart moves on the periphery. 

There is a path to rebuild and become a good team without completely bombing and giving away all-NBA caliber players for nothing. 

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The list of 15th overall picks turning out to be in the neighborhood of Antetokounmpo is long.

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28 minutes ago, Casimir said:

The list of 15th overall picks turning out to be in the neighborhood of Antetokounmpo is long.

Arguably 2 of the best players in the East were 15th picks. Giannis & Kawhi. 

Just saying - there are ways you can improve this team where things are and it doesn't have to be gloom and doom with every single thing that happens. Contracts expire, and things change. This team has all their draft picks, two all-NBA talent guys and some cap space opening up soon. They also have a front office that is now comprised of analytics gurus from top tier teams. 

I know its easy to say "OMG WE SUCK AND WILL ALWAYS SUCK" but being a little nuanced and saying "Yeah, we aren't contenders and likely won't be for a long time, but here are things we can do to improve" shouldn't just be dismissed. 

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Has anyone besides Philly really done tanking well? And they screwed it up royally at the end taking Fultz.

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you can make an all star team with the players who have been drafted after the pistons' picks over the last ten years.

the essential reason the pistons are where they are is that they have drafted poorly and failed to develop their players other than andre drummond and, to a lesser extent, kcp.

there is nothing that prevents them from drafting good players whatever position they are drafting.  that said, you enhance your ability to get a better player by drafting higher in the draft.

as for this team, if they are to develop beyond first round fodder, they need a healthy andre/blake, kennard to develop in a really good player, and to find someone in this draft immediately because blake is aging and injury prone.  if they can find a star in this draft (or any draft) it changes the course of the franchise.

so while i would blow it up hinkie style, i certainly recognize that you dont have to do that to get good.  but you do have to be able to find talent and develop it, which they have not been able to consistently do.  and you need to get lucky, and they havent been lucky since andre fell to them.  more accurately, they have looked luck in the face (booker, turner, winslow, mitchell) and said "nyah, we'd rather have stanley johnson and the kid from duke."

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Van Gundy and Bower's thought process with drafting lead to the Ellenson and Johnson picks. In lieu of the Pistons making huge salary dumps, we need to see what this new group does with the draft picks they have. I like the Bruce Brown pick as a second rounder. We don't really have that much to go on yet.

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3 hours ago, Buddha said:

the essential reason the pistons are where they are is that they have drafted poorly and failed to develop their players other than andre drummond and, to a lesser extent, kcp.

Oh, sure, this cannot be ignored, and it probably has been ignored to an extent on this debate.  Drafting higher would give them a wider array of players to pick from.  But if the pick poorly and/or can't develop, than where they pick doesn't matter.

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4 hours ago, 313DetroitCity said:

Arguably 2 of the best players in the East were 15th picks. Giannis & Kawhi. 

Just saying - there are ways you can improve this team where things are and it doesn't have to be gloom and doom with every single thing that happens. Contracts expire, and things change. This team has all their draft picks, two all-NBA talent guys and some cap space opening up soon. They also have a front office that is now comprised of analytics gurus from top tier teams. 

I know its easy to say "OMG WE SUCK AND WILL ALWAYS SUCK" but being a little nuanced and saying "Yeah, we aren't contenders and likely won't be for a long time, but here are things we can do to improve" shouldn't just be dismissed. 

Just for grins, here is the list of 15th overall picks since Y2K.

image.thumb.png.22a870af629ca951e7c5999c7a8d4868.png

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16 hours ago, 313DetroitCity said:

Arguably 2 of the best players in the East were 15th picks. Giannis & Kawhi. 

Just saying - there are ways you can improve this team where things are and it doesn't have to be gloom and doom with every single thing that happens. Contracts expire, and things change. This team has all their draft picks, two all-NBA talent guys and some cap space opening up soon. They also have a front office that is now comprised of analytics gurus from top tier teams. 

I know its easy to say "OMG WE SUCK AND WILL ALWAYS SUCK" but being a little nuanced and saying "Yeah, we aren't contenders and likely won't be for a long time, but here are things we can do to improve" shouldn't just be dismissed. 

Lets be honest. They have finished above .500 one season in the last 11, have made the playoffs (barely) in only two and have a current roster that is capped out with little room for growth because it's a mostly veteran team with no high end young talent so I'm sure you can understand the frustration and being sick of being mired in constant mediocrity. There's a reason why there's a sense of doom and gloom amongst the fans.

Sure, the team can improve a bit in the short term with some subtle moves here and there but as of right now, it's hard to see any light at the end of the tunnel when there are so few assets to work with going forward. The objective when it all boils down to it is to build a team that can compete for championships, not barely sneak into the playoffs at best, and it just feels like it's never going to happen at this point. At the very least, you want an exciting young roster that has big growth potential and there's just very little meat on that bone here. 

What I want to see is a commitment to a real plan, ship out the core that's getting them nowhere and start completely fresh building with youth and a few cheaper veterans to guide them along. Try to add draft picks however you can and build a real foundation from the ground up. It won't be easy and there will be a lot of pain that comes along with it but it's better than being stuck in the mud stuck in NBA purgatory. Drafting and developing, that's where the major improvement will need to come from.

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22 hours ago, Deleterious said:

Hire Hinkie and let him do his thing.

Year 1 would have just finished up.  They would have been in the Zion sweepstakes.  Probably about the same timeline as waiting on bad deals to come off the books.  Except you would be coming off that time period with a couple of high draft picks already on your team.  But hey, when Reggie and Leuer expire they will have a 32 year old Griffin and a 28 year old Drummond.  So they have that going for them.

Not going to happen.

Wishful thinking.

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