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DumberAndLeaner

Elective Tommy John

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5 hours ago, DumberAndLeaner said:

When a pitcher that is not disabled elects to have TJ surgery hoping to improve his game, who pays for the surgery? 

You can't say "disabled" anymore.  

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15 hours ago, DumberAndLeaner said:

When a pitcher that is not disabled elects to have TJ surgery hoping to improve his game, who pays for the surgery? 

Tommy John will not improve your performance, unless there is something wrong with the ligament, so the premise of your question is flawed.

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10 hours ago, bobrob2004 said:

You can't say "disabled" anymore.  

Fair enough, you are right about that. But my intention was to describe a state of being that is not a  result of work related activity.

On the job injury, I'm sure the club pays for it.  However If it's an elective procedure.....I'm sure there are several hurdles that need to be crossed before the team just gratuitously opens it's purse and pays for it. That is the true nature of my curiosity.

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7 minutes ago, Longgone said:

Tommy John will not improve your performance, unless there is something wrong with the ligament, so the premise of your question is flawed.

That's not what I have seen in a few places claiming that some players have gone that route hoping to improve their game. 

However, a quick check on google threw up this: https://health.clevelandclinic.org/can-tommy-john-surgery-improve-your-throwing/

SO, maybe you are right. However I guess that the word "wrong" in the context that you use it might be considered subjective

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2 minutes ago, DumberAndLeaner said:

That's not what I have seen in a few places claiming that some players have gone that route hoping to improve their game. 

The process leading to TJ is generally a degenerative one, so there will be a gradual reduction in performance prior to the ultimate tear. So performance can be better after surgery than it was before, but that was due to damage to the ligament, not to the surgery. You are not going to improve a healthy ligament.

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12 minutes ago, Longgone said:

The process leading to TJ is generally a degenerative one, so there will be a gradual reduction in performance prior to the ultimate tear. 

So would it be accurate to say that the procedures being called "elective TJ" are done by pitchers who have noticed deteriorating performance, but have not yet experienced debilitating injury?

https://www.foxnews.com/health/tommy-john-surgery-the-next-student-steroid

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The following article seems to "fly in the face" of most of the more conventional articles on the topic, but the part where Kerry Wood claims that TJ improved his game is hard to overlook. As is the comparison between elective sports surgery and doping

 

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TJ surgery is only elective in the sense that you elect to continue pitching.  A few years ago, I had elective meniscus surgery because I wanted to continue running competitively in my 50s.  I could have elected not to have the surgery and still continued a normal life with a moderately active lifestyle, but I elected to have the surgery in hopes I could remain more intensely active (it didn't really work).  TJ surgery is the same thing.  In most cases, a person can continue to live a normal life without it, but he wouldn't be able to continue pitching

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So, some are claiming that it's not the actual surgery that improves the pitcher's performance, but the re-hab program, they undergo post surgery. I find that interesting as well. 

if one makes a close study of mechanical principles, you notice that even small changes in the fulcrum point of a lever, as an example, can have notable effect on the mechanical advantage of that lever.

To that end, I have to wonder if there is an optimum means of attachment (location as an example) of that UCL ligament, and to what extent that attachment might vary from the pitcher's organic "as born" condition? Conceivably even just a mm or two could make some difference.

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1 hour ago, tiger337 said:

 I elected to have the surgery in hopes I could remain more intensely active (it didn't really work).  

Sorry to hear about your disappointing results.  I tore my meniscus at work about 9 years ago. Had Arthro. 

The surgery made the pain go away, for which I am eternally thankful.  But there is a lingering  feeling of instability, like if I don't consciously correct for it, that my knee could bend sideways. Only a real problem when I'm climbing a ladder. There is no way I could just throw 80 pounds over one shoulder and climb a ladder normally, due to this. 

I guess that a big part of the problem is, that cartilage does not regenerate? I can recall seeing Magglio running like he was running on glass, and now have complete sympathy

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7 hours ago, tiger337 said:

TJ surgery is only elective in the sense that you elect to continue pitching.  A few years ago, I had elective meniscus surgery because I wanted to continue running competitively in my 50s.  I could have elected not to have the surgery and still continued a normal life with a moderately active lifestyle, but I elected to have the surgery in hopes I could remain more intensely active (it didn't really work).  TJ surgery is the same thing.  In most cases, a person can continue to live a normal life without it, but he wouldn't be able to continue pitching

Then there are guys like Tanaka, who apparently healed enough to keep pitching without the surgery.

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On 4/7/2019 at 12:06 PM, DumberAndLeaner said:

Sorry to hear about your disappointing results.  I tore my meniscus at work about 9 years ago. Had Arthro. 

The surgery made the pain go away, for which I am eternally thankful.  But there is a lingering  feeling of instability, like if I don't consciously correct for it, that my knee could bend sideways. Only a real problem when I'm climbing a ladder. There is no way I could just throw 80 pounds over one shoulder and climb a ladder normally, due to this. 

I guess that a big part of the problem is, that cartilage does not regenerate? I can recall seeing Magglio running like he was running on glass, and now have complete sympathy

I had the same experience as you in that the pain went away, but it still doesn't feel that stable.  It's not a big deal.  I am 56 and can still run, hike and bike, just not competitively anymore.  I think that sort of surgery works a lot better when you're young.  

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9 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

I had the same experience as you in that the pain went away, but it still doesn't feel that stable.  It's not a big deal.  I am 56 and can still run, hike and bike, just not competitively anymore.  I think that sort of surgery works a lot better when you're young.  

Like too many other things.

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8 hours ago, tiger337 said:

I had the same experience as you in that the pain went away, but it still doesn't feel that stable.  It's not a big deal.  I am 56 and can still run, hike and bike, just not competitively anymore.  I think that sort of surgery works a lot better when you're young.  

In contrast, I have a friend that had both knees replaced, he is 10 years younger than me...and cannot run at all.  He walks just fine, but running is a no go.

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I think a big part of it is, you have to keep doing those exercises they give you, everyday..... like forever.  I eventually gave up after I started noticing that there was no longer any progress being made, ....and  some chronic stiffness has been the result.

Vmart could probably out run me, but I'm 62 years old, so there is no place I have to get to in a hurry.

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On 4/6/2019 at 6:48 PM, DumberAndLeaner said:

When a pitcher that is not disabled elects to have TJ surgery hoping to improve his game, who pays for the surgery? 

If he's a 12 year-old...probably his parents. 

My niece is a HS Sr...she used to play softball year round. She played in school leagues early in the spring and then travel leagues over the summer.  Occasionally, they'd even play in the winter if the indoor facility at a college was close enough to get a game in.  She would take batting practice and other hitting drills all year long. She was a mini Nick Madrigal..small and no power, great eye and and a good stroke.  She also had a stress fracture of her spine before he was 15.  She fought it for a couple of years before it became clear that continuing to put that kind of stress on her frame was going to really mess up her back.   So she was forced to give up the sport that dominated her life for the better part of a decade.  That injury still bothers her and probably will for the rest of her life.  I know that some kids can handle a year round schedule on a single sport...but you have to wonder how many kids get ground up by the process (like my niece) to produce one Jarred Kelenic

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