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Game 76: Blazers @ Pistons

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1 hour ago, Buddha said:

youre obviously not on pistons twitter.

the "trade andre" versus the "andre is awesome" crowd have been going at it all year.

I'm not, but I tend to find Twitter attracts extremes on most fronts. I would say most everyone on this forum has either said Andre is bad, overpaid or average. I have been one of the few who consistently said he was good and had room to grow. But never would I have called him great, or a franchise changing player. 

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22 hours ago, 313DetroitCity said:

I mean, he has had a great stretch. But I don't think I've ever seen anyone on here call him a great player. 

Whether he is a 'great' player or not, this season has been a great turnaround for him; to have reached the top 20  in WS and PER after how badly he was playing early in the season has been a pretty good level of play for a pretty good while.

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2 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

Whether he is a 'great' player or not, this season has been a great turnaround for him; to have reached the top 20  in WS and PER after how badly he was playing early in the season has been a pretty good level of play for a pretty good while.

Until you realize nobody cares about those stats. 

 

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5 hours ago, Deleterious said:

Until you realize nobody cares about those stats. 

 

it's not the stats per se - just that the movement in the numbers is an easy way to see the difference in his play. Even at the most basic numbers level, he is about to finish with the highest scoring average of his career, while still leading the league in rebounding. 

We dump on the guy a lot for when plays stupidly - which is fair, but they would still be the Knicks without him.

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9 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

it's not the stats per se - just that the movement in the numbers is an easy way to see the difference in his play. Even at the most basic numbers level, he is about to finish with the highest scoring average of his career, while still leading the league in rebounding. 

We dump on the guy a lot for when plays stupidly - which is fair, but they would still be the Knicks without him.

But he is taking 2 more shots than he ever has for just two more points.  That is the problem with Andre, how inefficient he is.

He shoots 53% from the field, and takes almost no three pointers.  A big like that should be over 60% from the field.  

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5 hours ago, Deleterious said:

But he is taking 2 more shots than he ever has for just two more points.  That is the problem with Andre, how inefficient he is.

He shoots 53% from the field, and takes almost no three pointers.  A big like that should be over 60% from the field.  

But they aren't running offense for him. If he's scoring on garbage - rebounds and putbacks, it's mostly gravy. He's averaging 2.3 more pts on 1.7 more shots, so that's actually a 1.35 PPP rate at the margin. (his minutes and FT are pretty much unchanged from last season). Sure he's a limited player, but sometimes it feels we won't even give him credit where credit is due - he has improved year to year the last two seasons.

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4 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

But they aren't running offense for him. If he's scoring on garbage - rebounds and putbacks, it's mostly gravy. He's averaging 2.3 more pts on 1.7 more shots, so that's actually a 1.35 PPP rate at the margin. (his minutes and FT are pretty much unchanged from last season). Sure he's a limited player, but sometimes it feels we won't even give him credit where credit is due - he has improved year to year the last two seasons.

Sort of irrelevant if they do or don't run offense for him.  And it isn't gravy, he is wasting possessions by being inefficient.  

Not sure where you got the numbers from.  But he is taking 2.1 more shots per game for 2.3 more points.  That is a woeful 1.09 points per shot (Not possession by the way).  He hasn't improved, he's simply taking more shots.  And doing it at a very inefficient rate.  

I've only watched about 15 Pistons games this year, so maybe his defense has improved, I can't speak on that.  But he still has the same problem he always had on offense, inefficiency.  

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13 minutes ago, Deleterious said:

I've only watched about 15 Pistons games this year, so maybe his defense has improved, I can't speak on that.  But he still has the same problem he always had on offense, inefficiency.  

It is shocking you only watched 15 games given your activity level and bearish analysis of the team. Not interested in watching or scheduling issues?

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13 minutes ago, 313DetroitCity said:

It is shocking you only watched 15 games given your activity level and bearish analysis of the team. Not interested in watching or scheduling issues?

A little of both I guess.

I will end up watching about 400 NBA games this year.  I bet the playoffs fairly heavy, so I try to concentrate on teams that were playoff locks.  

When I do want to just watch a game for fun, I tend to watch a Kings or Mavs game and lately the Hawks.  All three have young players that I'm interested in.  Detroit doesn't have much going on that interests me.  

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1 hour ago, Deleterious said:

Sort of irrelevant if they do or don't run offense for him.  And it isn't gravy, he is wasting possessions by being inefficient.  

Not sure where you got the numbers from.  But he is taking 2.1 more shots per game for 2.3 more points.  That is a woeful 1.09 points per shot (Not possession by the way).  He hasn't improved, he's simply taking more shots.  And doing it at a very inefficient rate.  

I've only watched about 15 Pistons games this year, so maybe his defense has improved, I can't speak on that.  But he still has the same problem he always had on offense, inefficiency.  

This. And no, his defense hasn't gotten much better. His blocks have gone up by a tiny bit, but so have his fouls. He's good at putting stats on the board, but he still jumps on every pump fake, is poor at rotating for help-side defense, and is simply not a good 1 on 1 defender. Bottom line, he's still an average defender with some stats.

Am I being harsh on him? Maybe, but his contract and role on this team force me to compare him to what he would look like as a "great" player. "Good" simply isn't good enough for what we could do with that money and those inefficient possessions. 

And I've watched every single possession of every Pistons game this year (and for the past 16 years)...along with my fair share of other NBA games every season. Yes, I even watch the blowouts until the very end - call me crazy, I like to watch and analyze plays regardless of score.

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5 hours ago, Deleterious said:

 

Not sure where you got the numbers from

Basketball ref has him at 15.0 ppg last yr, 17.3 this year, his 2PA rising from 11.2 to 12.9. What did I miss?

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4 hours ago, Betrayer said:

but his contract and role on this team force me to compare him to what he would look like as a "great" player.

I never get this as a critique of a player as a player. Was he supposed to turn down the money? His role on the team is to play center. The  same role whether he is good center, mediocre center or great center. I'll grant you all day long that the Pistons overpaid. To regard Drummond as a worse player because of that doesn't follow.

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It could have been worse, we could have kept Greg Monroe and paid him a huge contract...

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8 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

Basketball ref has him at 15.0 ppg last yr, 17.3 this year, his 2PA rising from 11.2 to 12.9. What did I miss?

I'm using his total FGA.

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11 minutes ago, Deleterious said:

I'm using his total FGA.

true, that goes to the silliness early in the season, but being more interested in what he is doing now, I took his 2PA as he gave up his 3pt ambitions as part of his turnaround.

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15 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

I never get this as a critique of a player as a player. Was he supposed to turn down the money? His role on the team is to play center. The  same role whether he is good center, mediocre center or great center. I'll grant you all day long that the Pistons overpaid. To regard Drummond as a worse player because of that doesn't follow.

It's not about the player. I couldn't care less about Dre's bank account. It's about the team. Each team only has so much money and so many possessions - those are finite resources. With his salary and his usage he needs to be a much better player. If he was getting paid 12M a year and had the ball in his hands half the time, he would be viewed under a much different lens with different expectations.

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8 hours ago, Betrayer said:

It's not about the player. I couldn't care less about Dre's bank account. It's about the team. Each team only has so much money and so many possessions - those are finite resources. With his salary and his usage he needs to be a much better player. If he was getting paid 12M a year and had the ball in his hands half the time, he would be viewed under a much different lens with different expectations.

I get what you are saying, but still, a team only has one starting center and that player is going to play starters minutes as long as he is marginally better than the guy behind him, so his usage is going to follow from his role - it can't follow from his salary. Yes it's true by simple arithmetic that the money they gave Dre then can't give to someone else and yes that impacts the flexibility of the front office, and it's a reasonable proposition that any smart front office spends the most on their best players, but I guess I come at it from a different aide - I don't take any of that as reason to hold Dre particularly responsible for not being a player they knew full well he would never be when they gave him the money. 

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16 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

I don't take any of that as reason to hold Dre particularly responsible for not being a player they knew full well he would never be when they gave him the money. 

Oh, I don't blame Dre for the money. I do blame him for his play on the court. Being a starting Center means you'll get the minutes, but it doesn't mean you have to play outside of your ability and hurt the team with bad possessions and shots. That's all on Dre and it's really easy to correct if he was even mildly self-aware. Funny moment in this particular game was seeing Casey's reaction on the sideline as we all watched Dre try to dribble the ball up the court for no good reason and then turn it over. Casey threw his arms up and made that face that we all made watching it at home as well.

The blame for the money goes to the organization. They signed him knowing what he was and they've done nothing to correct that mistake.

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i think that we all focus in on the pistons players and see their flaws every game and if we applied the same focus to other top players on other teams, we would see the flaws in their games too.

andre is far from perfect, but he has improved a little bit every year.  he's a good big man in a league that is moving away from players like him.  he's not the best in the league, but he's probably a top 5-6 center.

if they make the playoffs, we'll see how he does and if other teams can stop the pnr and keep him off the boards.  if other teams can't stop him once they get serious about game planning for him, then we'll know how much he's improved and how much of it is him taking advantage of the "empty calories" of an nba schedule.

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