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2019 REGULAR SEASON DISCUSSION THREAD

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1 hour ago, tiger337 said:

It's not that hard to believe.  There are several franchises in the same boat.  The Yankees are so far ahead of everybody else that it's not funny.  I don't like the prevailing notion that winning the World Series is the only thing that matters.   One good thing about the history of the Tigers is that they have had a lot of great players.  I would put their all-time all-star team ahead of anybody but the Yankees and they aren't that far behind them.  That is why it stinks to see guys like Scherzer and Verlander leave and become stars for other teams.  Players like that provide a lot of entertainment and great memories.  Teams like the last three years provide almost no entertainment or memories.  Tanking year after year in order to get an outside shot at a world championship some day is not something I want to see as a fan. I know that's a minority opinion here.        

Agree.  After the Verlander trade when I finally came to grips that we were going to be terrible for quite some time the silver lining in it for me was that I was atleast going to see Miggy chase down some milestones.    I figured he would still be a productive player as long as he was on the field so that would give me some enjoyment out of the team, boy was I wrong about that. 

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As much as I hated the Verlander trade, without it Det does not have Mize. If JV stays Det would have won at least 1 more game giving SF the top overall draft pick.

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2 hours ago, tiger337 said:

It's not that hard to believe.  There are several franchises in the same boat.  The Yankees are so far ahead of everybody else that it's not funny.  I don't like the prevailing notion that winning the World Series is the only thing that matters.

Not only that, but the for 70 years only the top team in the leagues made the World Series.

The Tigers were ****ing loaded in the 30's and only got to a pair of World Series because Yankees. 

People talk about the Cardinal system at that time, and the Cardinals definitely were the class of the NL, but I'd suggest the Tigers were as good as the Cards in the 30's, if not better overall.

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10 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Not only that, but the for 70 years only the top team in the leagues made the World Series.

The Tigers were ****ing loaded in the 30's and only got to a pair of World Series because Yankees. 

Go back even further to the Ty Cobb era.  The Tigers lost 3 straight WS from 1907-1909.  

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Along a similar vein, the Cubs had some really good prolonged runs that happened to coincide with the Cardinals also being really good during the same extended period.  That happened what, two, three times?

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15 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Not only that, but the for 70 years only the top team in the leagues made the World Series.

The Tigers were ****ing loaded in the 30's and only got to a pair of World Series because Yankees. 

People talk about the Cardinal system at that time, and the Cardinals definitely were the class of the NL, but I'd suggest the Tigers were as good as the Cards in the 30's, if not better overall.

If I could go back to any decade to watch the Tigers, it would be the 30s.  That seemed like a really entertaining team.  

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I think from 1901-1950 the Tigers either had the best overall MLB record or were just behind the Yankees.  Part of that was NY was not good until some fat slob named Ruth? (IIRC) showed up in 1920.

But it mostly reflected that the Tigers, despite winning relatively few pennants, fielded really solid teams most of the time in that time-frame.  They just got edged out by other teams a number of times when they had very good teams, otherwise their pennant count would better, or more accurately, reflect their overall level of play over a long time-frame.

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4 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

I think from 1901-1950 the Tigers either had the best overall record or was just behind the Yankees.  Part of that was NY was not good until some fat slob named Ruth? (IIRC) showed up in 1920.

I believe the Tigers had the second most wins among AL franchises at the end of the 80s.  From 1901-1995, the Tigers lost 90 games or more just 8 times. Granted the AL only played 154 games through 1960. So looking at winning percentage, the Tigers posted a .444 or worse (90 losses in 162 games is a winning percentage of .444) just 13 times. . Since 1996 they have lost 90 games 10 times and counting. Assuming 90 losses this year, that will be 11 90-loss seasons in 24 years. For almost a century the Tigers fielded fairly competitive teams, if not great ones. The last two decades have  been a lot of feast or famine. Give me the more balanced curve of the first 100 years. 

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4 hours ago, tiger337 said:

It's not that hard to believe.  There are several franchises in the same boat.  The Yankees are so far ahead of everybody else that it's not funny.  I don't like the prevailing notion that winning the World Series is the only thing that matters.   One good thing about the history of the Tigers is that they have had a lot of great players.  I would put their all-time all-star team ahead of anybody but the Yankees and they aren't that far behind them.  That is why it stinks to see guys like Scherzer and Verlander leave and become stars for other teams.  Players like that provide a lot of entertainment and great memories.  Teams like the last three years provide almost no entertainment or memories.  Tanking year after year in order to get an outside shot at a world championship some day is not something I want to see as a fan. I know that's a minority opinion here.        

The pro-tanking opinion as expressed around here has "tanked" my enjoyment of MTS.  I dont in any way need to see angry fans or anything silly like that....but to see the glib reinforcement of maximizing losses for multiple seasons as some kind of virtue makes me want to eat a copy of Moneyball and throw up.

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1 minute ago, sabretooth said:

The pro-tanking opinion as expressed around here has "tanked" my enjoyment of MTS.  I dont in any way need to see angry fans or anything silly like that....but to see the glib reinforcement of maximizing losses for multiple seasons as some kind of virtue makes me want to eat a copy of Moneyball and throw up.

Yes, I have the same problem.  To be fair though, I think most people are just trying to remain positive in some way.  I don't think too many are truly enjoying this process.  Regardless, I am not getting on the tank bandwagon. 

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I don't want to go into the season wanting to tank, but once ownership spent no money and the team sucks you might as well embrace it. 

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Maybe next won't be so bad IF we get some of the younger guys at the ML that we can root for individually... I was kind of hoping for that with Jeimer.    A play on the old Lions days of "The Lions can lose as long as Barry gets 100 yards and a touchdown or two"

With this team there's just nothing.... It'd be much better if Cabrera was still mashing, not from a W/L perspective but a numbers climbing.   Watching him now is worse than watching the rest of the team.  It's sad.

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3 minutes ago, Oblong said:

Maybe next won't be so bad IF we get some of the younger guys at the ML that we can root for individually... I was kind of hoping for that with Jeimer.    A play on the old Lions days of "The Lions can lose as long as Barry gets 100 yards and a touchdown or two"

With this team there's just nothing.... It'd be much better if Cabrera was still mashing, not from a W/L perspective but a numbers climbing.   Watching him now is worse than watching the rest of the team.  It's sad.

Same with some of the bad Pistons teams of the mid to late 90s.  They sucked or were mediocre at best but atleast you got to watch Grant Hill.   Hopefully once some of the young pitching starts to come up we can atleast root for them during their starts.  

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56 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

The pro-tanking opinion as expressed around here has "tanked" my enjoyment of MTS.  I dont in any way need to see angry fans or anything silly like that....but to see the glib reinforcement of maximizing losses for multiple seasons as some kind of virtue makes me want to eat a copy of Moneyball and throw up.

I imagine I'm lumped into your "pro tanking" crowd.   I'm not pro tanking at all.  I'd prefer they attempted to rebuild on the fly and remain competitive.   Ownership/management chose not to do that.

More precisely what I am is tired of those that come here repeatedly to remind us all how horrible this team is.  We're not stupid, we know that.  Please add something new.

Or perhaps it's the crowd that is amazed at how horrible they really are - as has been repeated ad nauseam - I'm bewildered by how someone would be surprised that a team that set out to be bad - is bad.

I'm hoping the multiple seasons of enhanced crappiness ends and next year the climb back begins.

So as is mentioned in a subsequent post I'm an optimist and I guess to say the tank is succeeding it's clinging to at least one positive of a craptastic season.

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If we’re going to be bad, I’d just assume there is a downstream benefit to it.  Being a .500 team is probably the worst state as you don’t get the satisfaction of a good team or access to the always important high Rule V pick.

I don’t wish for this team to lose—they don’t need my help.  I also hate that they are losing at a potentially historic rate.  

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16 minutes ago, LooseGoose said:

I imagine I'm lumped into your "pro tanking" crowd.   I'm not pro tanking at all.  I'd prefer they attempted to rebuild on the fly and remain competitive.   Ownership/management chose not to do that.

More precisely what I am is tired of those that come here repeatedly to remind us all how horrible this team is.  We're not stupid, we know that.  Please add something new.

Or perhaps it's the crowd that is amazed at how horrible they really are - as has been repeated ad nauseam - I'm bewildered by how someone would be surprised that a team that set out to be bad - is bad.

I'm hoping the multiple seasons of enhanced crappiness ends and next year the climb back begins.

So as is mentioned in a subsequent post I'm an optimist and I guess to say the tank is succeeding it's clinging to at least one positive of a craptastic season.

It's not just the Tigers are tanking.  Tanking teams set out to lose 100 games.  What the 2019 Tigers are doing is tanking to the extreme.  They are set to lose 110+ games are are probably going to get close to breaking the AL record If Castellanos, Greene, and Boyd are traded.  People are nonchalant about it because it's a "been there, done that" before in 2003, so it's hard to understand the historical nature of what the Tigers are doing this year.  It's not that they are just bad, it's that they are historically bad, even after what they did in 2003.  And Chris Ilitch and Al Avila seem to be proud of that fact.  

 Let's briefly ignore their first 22 games of the year.  The Tigers are 18-61 in their last 79 games.  That's a winning percentage of .228.  The worst winning percentage in the history of the modern era were the 1916 Philadelphia A's at .235.  Sure, it's a pretty big jump comparing 79 games to 153, but 79 games is not a small number.  If we extrapolate that to the rest of the year, the Tigers would have gone 32-108 over their last 140 games and finish with an overall 44-118 record, 7th worst all time in the modern era.  

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I just root for what's best for the franchise.  If losing is what's best for the franchise than I will root for that.  Ultimately though to me it really doesn't matter if you're a 50 win team or a 70 win team, I get the same satisfaction or lack there of out of the team.  To me you're just a team that is losing majority of their games and has no chance at the playoffs.   

The Pistons have been in NBA purgatory for over a decade and I get no more satisfaction out of those teams than I would have if they finished dead last.  If you're not competing for the playoffs in MLB or NFL or high seeds in NBA or NHL than I really don't care how many games you win,  my interest level really wouldn't change much either way.  

edit: To clarify if I knew the players on the team were going to be a major part of the future I'd rather win more games cause that would tell me that they are further along and closer to contention, but if the team is mostly just castoffs that have no future with the team anyway I really don't care about the win total aside from not wanting to be embarrassingly bad like we are now.  As long as we beat the 03 Tigers I will be satisfied.

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8 minutes ago, bobrob2004 said:

It's not just the Tigers are tanking.  Tanking teams set out to lose 100 games.  What the 2019 Tigers are doing is tanking to the extreme.  They are set to lose 110+ games are are probably going to get close to breaking the AL record If Castellanos, Greene, and Boyd are traded.  People are nonchalant about it because it's a "been there, done that" before in 2003, so it's hard to understand the historical nature of what the Tigers are doing this year.  It's not that they are just bad, it's that they are historically bad, even after what they did in 2003.  And Chris Ilitch and Al Avila seem to be proud of that fact.  

 Let's briefly ignore their first 22 games of the year.  The Tigers are 18-61 in their last 79 games.  That's a winning percentage of .228.  The worst winning percentage in the history of the modern era were the 1916 Philadelphia A's at .235.  Sure, it's a pretty big jump comparing 79 games to 153, but 79 games is not a small number.  If we extrapolate that to the rest of the year, the Tigers would have gone 32-108 over their last 140 games and finish with an overall 44-118 record, 7th worst all time in the modern era.  

Thanks!   Here I thought they were in the wild card race.

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10 minutes ago, bobrob2004 said:

It's not just the Tigers are tanking.  Tanking teams set out to lose 100 games.  What the 2019 Tigers are doing is tanking to the extreme.  

...and as my Dad always said:  "If you're going to do something, do it well."

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Since 1962 only two teams, the 2003 Tigers and the 2018 Orioles, were bad enough to enter the top (or bottom depending on how you look at it) 15 worse seasons of all time in the modern era, according to winning percentage.  All the teams that Avila wants to compare the Tigers to (Astros, Cubs, Phillies, etc.) did not have to be this bad in order to compete again.  That's what I'm most frustrated about.  

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The scary part is that depending on who we call up next year we could actually end up being worse.    I was looking at some expected batted ball numbers in hopes to see that maybe we've been unlucky or something but that really hasn't been the case.  Mercer and Harrison look to have been hurt by some bad luck by the BABIP Gods but according to xwOBA really nobody else on the team has been that unlucky.  They just haven't been good.    In fact some have actually been fortunate to only be as bad as they have been.  

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