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2019 REGULAR SEASON DISCUSSION THREAD

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Well, Mike Ilitch was loyal to a fault.  The Tigers are now tossing away regulars like fast food wrappers, and would be thrilled to unload the unloadable veterans like Cabrera and Zimmermann.  The questions are whether there is a viable plan to replace what they have with a team that will be able to contend in the foreseeable future, and whether the current brain(less?) trust can bring this franchise back to life.  And I have to answer both with an unequivocal NO.  I wouldn't count on Al Avila to bag my groceries without putting my eggs and bread at the bottom, much less to guide the Tigers back to respectability.

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46 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

I've tried to be patient, but it's not just a GM type of thing, it's the whole thing.  They're just doing it totally wrong and the sooner we make the move, the sooner we can see important baseball again, which seems like it's at least 5 years away.  I no longer believe in the 2021 thing, not with this management.  

Yeah... I'm not certain where you and six-hopper and chas are coming from...

I'm planning on being a playoff contender in 2021, with this current management team...

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this has been a depressing year for the organization from top to bottom, but why is anyone surprised?  did anyone really think this team would be good?  or even "ok"?  this is a gut job rebuild, the product of a decade of poor drafting and sending away prospects for immediate help.

it happens to lots of teams.

the question is how long you give avila for his drafts to show promise before you decide he's not up for it.  i would have fired him after the jd martinez trade but if youre going to stick with him and make him the architect of the rebuild, i would think you give him a couple years.  or at least doing so isnt "loyalty to a fault" but rather giving him some latitude to do his job.  

this organization was barren of talent, it takes time to build that up again.

see where we are at the end of this year and assess if theyre making progress in the minor leagues.  if not, pull the plug.  i suspect there will be enough there to keep avila in the job for at least one more year.

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35 minutes ago, 84 Lives!!! said:

Yeah... I'm not certain where you and six-hopper and chas are coming from...

I'm planning on being a playoff contender in 2021, with this current management team...

I'm planning on being a unicorn rancher in 2021.  But if only one of our plans works out, I hope it's yours.  I can settle for being a leprechaun trainer, a flying pig hunter, or a skate sharpener in heII.

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24 minutes ago, 84 Lives!!! said:

Yeah... I'm not certain where you and six-hopper and chas are coming from...

I'm planning on being a playoff contender in 2021, with this current management team...

What players do you think will make up the roster on the 2021 playoff contenders?

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1 hour ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Seeing the way some ex-Tigers are doing and how our organization can't seem to really develop any position players,  I think it might be time to consider completely blowing it up.   GM, Head Scout, Scouting Department...........The whole thing.    I don't trust them with this rebuild.   It just pisses me off to see how McCann, Iglesias, Suarez are doing.   Wouldn't be shocked if they traded Nick for nothing and Nick ends up being a .300 hitter with 25 HR for his next team.    The current administration was meant to sign free agent veterans - we need a player development type of approach.   Find someone from Houston or Tampa Bay to run this thing.    

Iglesias is hitting 20 points higher than last season and he has more HR playing in a smaller ballpark. He's the same guy. Suarez was a bad trade, nothing to indicate he wouldn't have done fine here. Nick is a head case who can't deal with losing and not being the sole object of the FO's love. He would be doing better  - probably will do better somewhere else next season for those reasons. McCann is a more damning case. I remember when McCann was still in the minors he was getting jerked around a bit by different managers advising him to hit differently. He hit 295 his last season in Toledo but without much power and the org was on him to change his approach to hit the long ball because they knew he was strong enough.  Could well be they should have left him alone and let his power develop naturally.

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6 minutes ago, chasfh said:

What players do you think will make up the roster on the 2021 playoff contenders?

Grayson Greiner and Dawel Lugo.  

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16 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

Suarez was a bad trade, nothing to indicate he wouldn't have done fine here.

I don't think he would have been nearly as good here.   We would not have properly developed him - because we pretty much never do.    It's time for a completely different approach.  Don't do the Lions thing and hire a new GM but make him keep certain people.  Clean sweep.  We aren't going to have an owner who just spend irresponsibly (probably not) again,  so it's time for a new way.  

And I am not ripping Mike Illitch,  it was a **** of a ride, but that's never likely to happen again here. 

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16 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

Grayson Greiner and Dawel Lugo.  

And Jordy Mercer and Josh Harrison for their veteran leadership.

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Mercer makes double what Iggy's making in Cincinnati and unlike the current crop of Tiger infielders, he's not an error machine.    Why couldn't our team getting anything close to this out of James McCann - what weren't we doing?   How far behind are they on analytics?  

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19 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

I don't think he would have been nearly as good here.   We would not have properly developed him - because we pretty much never do.    It's time for a completely different approach.  Don't do the Lions thing and hire a new GM but make him keep certain people.  Clean sweep.  We aren't going to have an owner who just spend irresponsibly (probably not) again,  so it's time for a new way.  

And I am not ripping Mike Illitch,  it was a **** of a ride, but that's never likely to happen again here. 

that's just it though, to be brutally honest Mike Ilitch is who we do have to rip on. Who was signing off the decisions when they had no analytics staff, no technology hardware in the development system, made the bad trades, wrote the bad contracts, hired the bad manager? It's not honest to dump on C. Ilitch and Avila for not turning a system completely around and then absolve the previous regime for any responsibility for where they are. M. Ilitch had a great heart and an open check book, but those two things alone did not make him a great sports team owner on the competition side. He was a great owner for the City of Detroit on the civic end, and that is to be celebrated, but the legacy of the condition of the team itself is also in large part his doing. So lets stop with the 'not ripping'. The facts are the facts.

That said, it probably is time for a new set of hands on the hitting coaching. There may or may not be anything wrong with Lloyd's hitting theories, but the problem with this team now in my view is less hitting theory than just what Kaline always talked about, which is hitting brains. I think as a team they may need to be worrying less about techniques than about thinking with the pitcher,  etc., which is what they seem worst at to me.

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3 hours ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Seeing the way some ex-Tigers are doing and how our organization can't seem to really develop any position players,  I think it might be time to consider completely blowing it up.   GM, Head Scout, Scouting Department...........The whole thing.    I don't trust them with this rebuild.   It just pisses me off to see how McCann, Iglesias, Suarez are doing.   Wouldn't be shocked if they traded Nick for nothing and Nick ends up being a .300 hitter with 25 HR for his next team.    The current administration was meant to sign free agent veterans - we need a player development type of approach.   Find someone from Houston or Tampa Bay to run this thing.    

Hold on.  Let’s not pretend anyone had a glimmer of thought that McCann could do what he is doing and/or that the Tigers soul does have retained him for this season.  That’s just horse **** to think otherwise.

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I was happy to see Iglesias and McCann go no matter what they did afterward. No regrets.

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46 minutes ago, Casimir said:

Hold on.  Let’s not pretend anyone had a glimmer of thought that McCann could do what he is doing and/or that the Tigers soul does have retained him for this season.  That’s just horse **** to think otherwise.

I do remember saying that McCann had a better chance of accidentally having a random good season than Greiner.

.398 BABIP for McCann.  

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8 minutes ago, socaltiger said:

I was happy to see Iglesias and McCann go no matter what they did afterward. No regrets.

McCann career OPS with Detroit - .653

So far with Chicag - .863

Iglesias with Detroit - .676

Iglesais with Cincy - .745

Small sample sizes, but ....  

Again, he has not much to work with, but the Tigers need a totally new approach to hitting, time to let Lloyd go.

 

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11 minutes ago, kj2018 said:

McCann career OPS with Detroit - .653

So far with Chicag - .863

Iglesias with Detroit - .676

Iglesais with Cincy - .745

Small sample sizes, but ....  

Again, he has not much to work with, but the Tigers need a totally new approach to hitting, time to let Lloyd go.

They need a hitting coach to teach them how to have a .400 BABIP.

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5 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

I do remember saying that McCann had a better chance of accidentally having a random good season than Greiner.

.398 BABIP for McCann.  

yeah McCann will come back to earth, though I won't be surprised if he does a little better on average hitting than he did here. It seems like when C Ilitch took over the org focused first on play data, then on pitching science, but we have not heard much about what they are doing on the hitting end so you have to guess it isn't much because Avila certainly isn't shy about talking about what they are doing.  I frankly can't guess what 'new' approaches can bring to hitting, but just doing anything new usually means upping the energy put in, and that alone usually helps.

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They need a "whack dingers" coach...maybe one of those touring softball behemoths who can hit a grapefruit sized ball nine miles

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Smoked some of that good stuff last night. But even with that clouded judgement I don't see a path for contention by 2021.

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41 minutes ago, kj2018 said:

McCann career OPS with Detroit - .653

So far with Chicag - .863

Iglesias with Detroit - .676

Iglesais with Cincy - .745

Small sample sizes, but ....  

Again, he has not much to work with, but the Tigers need a totally new approach to hitting, time to let Lloyd go.

 

I think it goes well beyond Lloyd

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1 minute ago, kdog said:

Smoked some of that good stuff last night. But even with that clouded judgement I don't see a path for contention by 2021.

The only path is for enough of the young starting pitching to pan out.  Combine that with just enough hitting.   They're almost certainly not going to hit their way into contention.

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3 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

that's just it though, to be brutally honest Mike Ilitch is who we do have to rip on. Who was signing off the decisions when they had no analytics staff, no technology hardware in the development system, made the bad trades, wrote the bad contracts, hired the bad manager? It's not honest to dump on C. Ilitch and Avila for not turning a system completely around and then absolve the previous regime for any responsibility for where they are. M. Ilitch had a great heart and an open check book, but those two things alone did not make him a great sports team owner on the competition side. He was a great owner for the City of Detroit on the civic end, and that is to be celebrated, but the legacy of the condition of the team itself is also in large part his doing. So lets stop with the 'not ripping'. The facts are the facts.

That said, it probably is time for a new set of hands on the hitting coaching. There may or may not be anything wrong with Lloyd's hitting theories, but the problem with this team now in my view is less hitting theory than just what Kaline always talked about, which is hitting brains. I think as a team they may need to be worrying less about techniques than about thinking with the pitcher,  etc., which is what they seem worst at to me.

I agree that Mr I made some bad decisions, but his heart was in the right place and governed many of his decisions, especially later in his life.  He gave us a great run.  And it might have continued if he were still alive.  I was an opponent of the rebuild—we didn’t need to tear it down, given that some of our core players are still prospering.  Once the decision was made, though, I’m the biggest cheerleader for the “tankers,” as we like to be known as (we even have t-shirts made). Mediocrity sucks—losing does, too, but hopefully it is a means to a happier end.

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32 minutes ago, Lei Pong said:

They need a "whack dingers" coach...maybe one of those touring softball behemoths who can hit a grapefruit sized ball nine miles

Is it “whack dingers” or is it “dinger whacker”?

I find either better than dong jacking.

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28 minutes ago, kdog said:

Smoked some of that good stuff last night. But even with that clouded judgement I don't see a path for contention by 2021.

Yeah, I don’t understand the 2021 chatter either.

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1 hour ago, tiger337 said:

I do remember saying that McCann had a better chance of accidentally having a random good season than Greiner.

.398 BABIP for McCann.  

His BABIP has been up there all season.

As far as Greiner, he’s a backup, pure and simple.  Everyone jumped on his bandwagon last season because he wasn’t McCann.

Just let Rogers develop in Toledo this season and hope he becomes a starter soon.  Greiner and Hicks is a tough tandem to watch.

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