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2019 REGULAR SEASON DISCUSSION THREAD

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2 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

I mean the fact that they've yet to talk an extension with him should be enough proof for Nick that they aren't interested.  If they believed in him and thought he'd be a worthwhile investment they would've tried signing him before this year.   

Not necessarily. If he’s extended he may not be as tradeable. Right now their focus is on adding more depth to the system. If he doesn’t end up traded, I wouldn’t be surprised to see them attempt to extend him. Giving credit where it is due, he has improved defensively. And we know he can ops 800. 

If he ends up being a guy they decide to keep to be part of the build, it wouldn’t be the end of the world. 

But I also think they want to wait and see how guys like jones, daz, and stew perform. 

We also don’t know what type of prospects they can get back in a Boyd or Greene trade. 

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9 minutes ago, Shelton said:

he has improved defensively

In some aspects - Still does not have a good OFs  mental aptitude however -  as evidenced all too clearly in the 1st KC game. 

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2 hours ago, Casimir said:

I don't see Cabrera out of baseball anytime soon

This spring I would have agreed, but a chronic back knee is something that could leave him pretty useless as hitter permanently. He'd basically be Victor but without being able to turn around against some pitchers. I guess will see how he manages it, but given the way he has managed his health so far it is more than a little difficult to be optimistic. HeII, he has known full well that his weight has been a big risk factor for his knees. He could have addressed that anytime in the last 10 yrs. The guy just has zero discipline around his fitness and it's doing him in rapidly.

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I don't think he has zero discipline.. he's just a big guy.  If you follow his instagram he's always posting things from the gym.  He's not prince fielder.  I know several people who are psychos about their fitness, both what they eat and their workouts, who have knee issues.

 

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21 minutes ago, Oblong said:

I don't think he has zero discipline.. he's just a big guy.  If you follow his instagram he's always posting things from the gym.  He's not prince fielder.  I know several people who are psychos about their fitness, both what they eat and their workouts, who have knee issues.

 

I think he lifts a lot - period. Have you seen him jog across the diamond from the handheld shot after an out? This guy has more loose flesh than the rest of the team combined. He is fat.

I also noted what Avila said and how he said it when the news about the knee came out. He basically said it was up to Cabrera to do what he needed to do to stay on the field. He didn't sound like  management was impressed with his current efforts.

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36 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

In some aspects - Still does not have a good OFs  mental aptitude however -  as evidenced all too clearly in the 1st KC game. 

Sure, that was boneheaded. 

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1 hour ago, Gehringer_2 said:

What I will stand by is what I actually wrote, which is that if Manning/Faedo/Burrows/Funkhouser are not good enough to make a difference by the end of next season, whey will bad for a lot longer than 2021.

That's hard to argue with since v1 of the rebuild has been built on the starting pitching.   If that fails we're pretty much back to square 1.

If we're talking possible progression/regression go position by position -  Some reasonable assumptions: 

LF - Stewart continues to improve against ML pitching.  CF - Jake is real.  RF - Cameron/Reyes is an improvement in the field and won't be far behind Nick's current performance.  DH - is Miggy with similar performance.

C - Rogers/Greiner really can't be worse can than the current version of Greiner plus Hicks?  Is there any other infield position that people want to argue might get worse when combining fielding and hitting?  All 4 positions are ripe for upgrades/internal improvements.

Pitching - yes Boyd and Turnbull might regress.   But we can hope that Norris improves and 2-3 of the kids make it to the bigs.   If so, any of them should be an improvement over Ross/JZ/Carpenter/etc.

The bullpen nobody knows - yes if we trade Greene there will be a drop off this year.  Perhaps counterbalanced by an improvement elsewhere from the trade?   

I think the argument in favor of some sort of an improvement next year is an easy one to make.  The debate is between incremental and leap.

 

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Prior to ST both sides were publicly leaving the door open. I saw an interview with Avila regarding Nick’s status beyond this year and he was deliberately neutral, which totally makes sense. Nick hinted he would be open to staying. Clearly that has changed.

My question was very simple, does anyone know if there were formal conversations between the parties, even to the extent of closing the door formally. I take it no one knows. 

I know he’s not coming back and why. 

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5 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

If they do get two front end starters by say -may next season, they will better. They can't help but be - yes - even with the *same* offense.

What I will stand by is what I actually wrote, which is that if Manning/Faedo/Burrows/Funkhouser are not good enough to make a difference by the end of next season, whey will bad for a lot longer than 2021.

sure, but whether they will be bad "for a lot longer than 2021" isnt the question.  the question was whether they will have a top pick in 2021.  for that not to happen they would have to be significantly improved NEXT year.  not in 2021 and not beyond 2021.

i can see lots of arguments that they will be a better team in 2021 and beyond, but NEXT YEAR?  i think they will be just as bad or marginally better next season.  a top 10 pick is almost assured, top 5 maybe depending if mize and manning are phenoms and come into the majors as stars, which is highly unlikely.  in fact, i think its more likely that manning comes up for a cup of coffee next september and mize is an average starter.

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1 hour ago, Buddha said:

i can see lots of arguments that they will be a better team in 2021 and beyond, but NEXT YEAR?  i think they will be just as bad or marginally better next season.  a top 10 pick is almost assured, top 5 maybe depending if mize and manning are phenoms and come into the majors as stars, which is highly unlikely.  in fact, i think its more likely that manning comes up for a cup of coffee next september and mize is an average starter.

This is close to my thinking. Between Mize/Manning/Burrows/Funkhauser/Faedo, I see 2 never making it.  With position players, Daz Cameron has yet to prove he can hit AAA pitching. Except Riley Greene, there really is no real impact position player in the next three years right now.

2020 seems to be a baked cake. It is maybe a 65 win team, barring some fabulous horse trading. 2021 maybe 73 wins and 2023  having 87 wins looks like a reasonable progression to me. in the minors, I am far more pessimistic then most. I think that Manning and Mize will be great. I am anticipating some FA signings in 2022 and beyond.

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9 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

Verlander is likely to be at around 73 wins by the end of this season.  If he plays another 6 seasons and averages 5 a year(considering the way he has aged I don't think that's unreasonable) he will be right around 6th or 7th all time among SP in WAR.  If he plays longer than that and/or ages even better he could possibly be in Walter Johnson territory with the only two people ahead of him being Clemens and Cy Young.   I know he's a big deal to Detroiters but on a national level I think he gets underrated.  He could seriously end up being one of the top 5 pitchers in the history of baseball yet he doesn't get a ton of recognition. 

From the Department of Carefful What You Wish For:

If Verlander gets 30 WAR in his age 37-42 seasons he may well go into Cooperstown in an Astros hat, especially if he wins two more rings with them.

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5 minutes ago, chasfh said:

From the Department of Carefful What You Wish For:

If Verlander gets 30 WAR in his age 37-42 seasons he may well go into Cooperstown in an Astros hat, especially if he wins two more rings with them.

🚨🚨🚨

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7 minutes ago, Shelton said:

🚨🚨🚨

You think he's a lock for a Tigers hat no matter what?

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19 minutes ago, chasfh said:

From the Department of Carefful What You Wish For:

If Verlander gets 30 WAR in his age 37-42 seasons he may well go into Cooperstown in an Astros hat, especially if he wins two more rings with them.

I still don't like the stiff front leg delivery. I believe his arm can do it - it's clearly generational, not as sure about the lower body. Nolan Ryan had the better mechanics in that regard - it's  one place Verlander and Ryan don't comp.

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I could see him going in as an Astro if he ages really well and wins a couple World Series there but to tell you the truth it wouldn't bother me either way.   I think most people really don't even know or remember what team most of the Hall of Famers went in for.  Aside from the obvious ones of course.  

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Speaking of Verlander, yesterday he threw his slider 37 times and generated 18 swings and misses with it.   Generated 28 swings in total out of the 37 pitches and out of those 28 swings only 4 were able to put a ball in play.  Talk about a devastating pitch.  

Also it's still early but as of now he is on pace to post the lowest single season WHIP in the history of baseball.  

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4 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

Speaking of Verlander, yesterday he threw his slider 37 times and generated 18 swings and misses with it.   Generated 28 swings in total out of the 37 pitches and out of those 28 swings only 4 were able to put a ball in play.  Talk about a devastating pitch.  

Still, it's keyed by that FB. It's that guys can't get up to the FB that guarantees they can't adjust down to the slider. 

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7 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

I could see him going in as an Astro if he ages really well and wins a couple World Series there but to tell you the truth it wouldn't bother me either way.   I think most people really don't even know or remember what team most of the Hall of Famers went in for.  Aside from the obvious ones of course.  

I'm with you: I wouldn't be really bothered, either, but I would feel a twinge of disappointment. How could I not? Given how much Verlander did here, I think a lot of Tiger fans would be disappointed to see him go in as an Astro, and if he did, it would take a long time for them to forget that he did so.

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12 minutes ago, chasfh said:

You think he's a lock for a Tigers hat no matter what?

No. But if I cared, I would worry about it when all of various prerequisites were actually met. Thankfully, I don’t really care. 

Your post simply merited three concern troll sirens. 

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23 minutes ago, Shelton said:

No. But if I cared, I would worry about it when all of various prerequisites were actually met. Thankfully, I don’t really care. 

Your post simply merited three concern troll sirens. 

Sure, you care. Otherwise you'd've ignored it instead of hammering it.

You remind me of my wife when she looks me in the eye and says "I'm ignoring you now."

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I'm happy for him, I hope he keeps it going for 5 more years.  I appreciate what he did here and don't care about his Cooperstown hat.

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1 hour ago, chasfh said:

From the Department of Carefful What You Wish For:

If Verlander gets 30 WAR in his age 37-42 seasons he may well go into Cooperstown in an Astros hat, especially if he wins two more rings with them.

he spent 12 years here.  in the best case scenario he spends 8 in houston?

and if he spends 10 years in houston and turns into roger clemens without the roids, god bless him for going in as an astro.

but i think the odds are he goes in as a tiger.

one thing is for certain, shelton does not care about it.  

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is verlander the greatest pitcher in tigers' history?

(i swear to god if one of you morons says jack morris were going to have to go outside...)

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Oh he definitely is without a doubt.   The only one that may have an argument when it's all said and done is Max but of course as a Tiger Verlander has him beat easily.    If you go by WAR there is a strong chance Verlander ends up in the top 10 or so and if you discount players pre deadball era and roiders and he could end up in real elite company. 

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