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2019 REGULAR SEASON DISCUSSION THREAD

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Just now, davidsb said:

Marlins probably said any deal involving Cabrera includes Willis.

I don’t think that was the case. At the time, Willis was still a relatively valuable asset with two years of control remaining. They could have probably traded Willis separately. They weren’t going to get a top 10 prospect out of it, though. 

I’m sure if the tigers offered the same package for Cabrera only the marlins would have happily kept Willis and traded him for additional pieces. It’s more likely the case that by including Willis the marlins were able to get the package from the tigers that they did. 

Regardless, it’s not the trade for Willis that was bad. It’s the immediate extension when after Willis had been showing signs of decline and when the tigers still had the option of going to year to year. 

DD did the same thing with Nate Robertson, signing him to a contract when he still had two years of arbitration left. 

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This has been disputed many places.

But fine, supposing the Marlins did insist on taking on Willis as part of the trade....the Tigers did not need to extend Dontrelle.

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1 minute ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

This has been disputed many places.

But fine, supposing the Marlins did insist on taking on Willis as part of the trade....the Tigers did not need to extend Dontrelle.

Agreed.

 

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There was no need to insist on taking Willis. If they didn’t want him he could have been non tendered or cut. He was not a toxic asset at the time of the trade. 

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9 minutes ago, Shelton said:

Regardless, it’s not the trade for Willis that was bad. It’s the immediate extension when after Willis had been showing signs of decline and when the tigers still had the option of going to year to year. 

this. I had no issue at all taking Willis, it was the extension that made no sense.

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There was a rumor at the time that the Tigers extended him because he was a friend of Cabrera and they wanted keep him happy.  Did they extend Willis before extending Cabrera?  That's the only way that theory might make some sense.,  

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45 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

There was a rumor at the time that the Tigers extended him because he was a friend of Cabrera and they wanted keep him happy.  Did they extend Willis before extending Cabrera?  That's the only way that theory might make some sense.,  

Tigers made the trade on 12/4/07.  They extended Willis on 12/21/07.  They first extended Cabrera on 3/24/08.  

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1 hour ago, tiger337 said:

There was a rumor at the time that the Tigers extended him because he was a friend of Cabrera and they wanted keep him happy.  Did they extend Willis before extending Cabrera?  That's the only way that theory might make some sense.,  

If Cabrera pulled a stunt like holding up the org for Willis in 2007, it should have been their first clue that they were dealing with a  guy that was not really interested in helping the organization win - which would make 2014 even dumber.

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8 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

If Cabrera pulled a stunt like holding up the org for Willis in 2007, it should have been their first clue that they were dealing with a  guy that was not really interested in helping the organization win - which would make 2014 even dumber.

If the rumor was true, did Cabrera "pull a stunt" or did the the team just do it in an effort to help him feel comfortable?  What I'm saying is that even if the rumor was true, no where did it say Cabrera demanded they extend Willis before he signed an extension.

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Just now, Oblong said:

Those chickens were cooked a few years ago for me.

Zimmermann doesn't exist to me.

.......at least not since he betrayed JV on the causeway.

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5 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

Ross has stopped throwing (again). Zimmermann not happy with his abbreviated rehab performance. 

Fans not happy with his bloated contract and unproductive stay in Detroit. 

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6 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said:

They made Victor work for 18m last year so I assume they will do the same with JZ and his 25m salary next year 

OTOH, last year Victor wasn't blocking anybody they were ready to look at. Situation could be a little different in next yr's starting rotation depending on how our minor league aces finish this season.

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7 minutes ago, pyrotigers said:

I assume the Tigers strategy is to get him injured bad enough that he retires or is at least out for next season 

Or have him pitch.   His replacement might be better.

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12 hours ago, tiger337 said:

There was a rumor at the time that the Tigers extended him because he was a friend of Cabrera and they wanted keep him happy.  Did they extend Willis before extending Cabrera?  That's the only way that theory might make some sense.,  

I really think it was as simple as DD valued Willis and extended him when they did not need to.

They did the same thing with Robertson and Cabrera on his second contract.

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2 hours ago, 4hzglory said:

If the rumor was true, did Cabrera "pull a stunt" or did the the team just do it in an effort to help him feel comfortable?  What I'm saying is that even if the rumor was true, no where did it say Cabrera demanded they extend Willis before he signed an extension.

Yeah, I don't remember hearing that it was a demand.  There was some talk about how he wasn't very mature and we now know he had a drinking problem, so surrounding him with players who were a positive influence would have made sense.  

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While I certainly wouldn't have done it nor would the vast majority of people I can atleast see DD's thought process in extending Willis if he really believed in him.   If DD truly felt that he saw something in Willis or believed that Willis was due to bounce back I could see signing him.  If Willis did somehow return to his 2005 form he would be a 26 year old SP coming off a 6 or 7 win season.   That would command a ton of money, so DD might have thought by giving him 3/29 beforehand he could potentially save 10s of millions if Willis did put up a monster season.

Of course there was no indication that he was going to do so, only indicators were that he was a potential lost cause but if there was something that DD or the scout team saw in him I could atleast see the logic behind the contract.   I really can't say the same for the Miggy contract cause no matter what Miggy did he wasn't going to command more money than what the Tigers gave him.  

edit: Just went and double checked and saw that he had two years of control, I thought it was only one so that changes things quite a bit and makes it that much harder to try to defend it. 

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9 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

I really think it was as simple as DD valued Willis and extended him when they did not need to.

They did the same thing with Robertson and Cabrera on his second contract.

yeah, I am not saying I believed the rumor.  I am just presenting it as a possibility since the extension didn't make any sense given his recent performance.   

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The Willis deal was a standard DD type deal. You know when he traded for Willis and Cabrera that he wasn’t going to be content to just let them hit free agency after giving up so much. 

At the time, Willis was still very young. He had two arbitration years remaining, so he was probably going to make close to 18 million (assuming he pitched well enough to be tendered a contract, which was a safe assumption). So the three year extension bought out one year of free agency. 

The motivation was understandable. But in hindsight it looks really bad because he still had two years of control left. 

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12 minutes ago, Shelton said:

The Willis deal was a standard DD type deal. You know when he traded for Willis and Cabrera that he wasn’t going to be content to just let them hit free agency after giving up so much. 

At the time, Willis was still very young. He had two arbitration years remaining, so he was probably going to make close to 18 million (assuming he pitched well enough to be tendered a contract, which was a safe assumption). So the three year extension bought out one year of free agency. 

The motivation was understandable. But in hindsight it looks really bad because he still had two years of control left. 

Hindsight is a wondrous thing.  I've often wished I could have made all the decisions in my life using it.   

It's like Avila this season - we all know what he was trying to do with the Ross, Moore, Harrison, Mercer and Beckham signings....and none have really worked out at all much less worked out well.  With hindsight I doubt you sign any of them but those are the chances you take.    As far as the JZ contract - I've got nothing other than blaming Bert he was pushing them to do something.

 

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I wouldn't put the Willis and Robetson contracts in the same status as Cabrera or VMart obviously..... 3 year deals are minor in scope... but there is a domino effect.  The team got in trouble in the 2009-2010 time frame and who knows if the money for those contracts prevented another move they could have made? If they don't spend money on those two in 2009 and 2010 maybe they have money to go after Beltre?

 

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