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2019 REGULAR SEASON DISCUSSION THREAD

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10 hours ago, chasfh said:

The non-zero chance has come to pass. Second time in my lifetime. Third if you lower the bar to 109 losses.

In fact, six teams have lost 109 or more games in the past 41 seasons. Three of those teams are the Ilitch Tigers.

*sigh*

Much like how the Ilitch family gets lauded by the intellectually lazy as being "champions of Detroit" and "heroes for the revival" despite being slumlords and their only contribution being restoring the Fox theater (I don't count the heavily subsidized Comerica Park), he gets credit for being a "great owner" because he hands out FA contracts like candy and stands on the shoulders of Jimmy Devellano and Dave Dombrowski.

 

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11 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

I don't know the numbers, but my experience growing up in Det in the 50/60 was that it seemed that the migrations of factory workers into Detroit were not evenly distributed. The east side of Det seemed to have much more southern flavor than the west, and that tended to be preserved into the movement into the suburbs. West siders moved to Livonia, Southfield, Farmington, East siders to Warren, Sterling Heights, etc.

I worked with the city of Detroit last year and the Detroiters that I worked with told me pretty much the same thing.

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38 minutes ago, Oblong said:

Much like how the Ilitch family gets lauded by the intellectually lazy as being "champions of Detroit" and "heroes for the revival" despite being slumlords and their only contribution being restoring the Fox theater (I don't count the heavily subsidized Comerica Park), he gets credit for being a "great owner" because he hands out FA contracts like candy and stands on the shoulders of Jimmy Devellano and Dave Dombrowski.

Yeah, pretty much.

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11 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

I don't know the numbers, but my experience growing up in Det in the 50/60 was that it seemed that the migrations of factory workers into Detroit were not evenly distributed. The east side of Det seemed to have much more southern flavor than the west, and that tended to be preserved into the movement into the suburbs. West siders moved to Livonia, Southfield, Farmington, East siders to Warren, Sterling Heights, etc.

Yeah, that checks out.

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1 hour ago, Oblong said:

Much like how the Ilitch family gets lauded by the intellectually lazy as being "champions of Detroit" and "heroes for the revival" despite being slumlords and their only contribution being restoring the Fox theater (I don't count the heavily subsidized Comerica Park), he gets credit for being a "great owner" because he hands out FA contracts like candy and stands on the shoulders of Jimmy Devellano and Dave Dombrowski.

 

I will give Mike Ilitch credit for seeing the value of creating a single area as a sports/entertainment district and wanting to put that district in mid-town. That was not an inevitable outcome and Ilitch had as much to do as any other single person with all the teams ending up downtown and close enough for sports to produce a positive synergism with Greektown and the business district rebuild. Now it was certainly as much in his own organization's benefit as anyone else's, but that doesn't mean it still has not been a good result for Detroit. If the four teams were all scattered around the suburbs today I think it is a questionable argument that the run down properties owned by the Ilitches would be any more valuable under different ownership.

That said, there is very little true civic altruism, I think the best you can hope from the system is for people with resources to sometimes end up generating positive secondary effects from doing what they want to do for their own profit and ego reasons.

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10 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

It's great to see Turnbull finishing the season with a couple of strong outings.

Yes, it is.  He is one of the only good things that happened for the Tigers this year.  For what it's worth, he has almost the same ERA and a lower FIP than Boyd.  

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3 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

I will give Mike Ilitch credit for seeing the value of creating a single area as a sports/entertainment district and wanting to put that district in mid-town. That was not an inevitable outcome and Ilitch had as much to do as any other single person with all the teams ending up downtown and close enough for sports to produce a positive synergism with Greektown and the business district rebuild. Now it was certainly as much in his own organization's benefit as anyone else's, but that doesn't mean it still has not been a good result for Detroit. If the four teams were all scattered around the suburbs today I think it is a questionable argument that the run down properties owned by the Ilitches would be any more valuable under different ownership.

That said, there is very little true civic altruism, I think the best you can hope from the system is for people with resources to sometimes end up generating positive secondary effects from doing what they want to do for their own profit and ego reasons.

But I'm not convinced that concentration is a good thing overall... when there's no event going on at Comerica or Ford Field that particular area is dead.  That's probably not Ilitchs fault as he didn't build I-375/I-75 like that and they had to build around it.  If they ever follow through with the plan to raze 375 and make it a boulevard like it used to be that would open things up.  Ford Field and Eastern Market is divided right now so you don't get the spillover.  If there's not an event then there's no need to be over there by the stadiums.  I drove by a few years ago on a Saturday night and Cheli's was closed. (This was before he closed it permanently).  Yet 1/4 mile away there's a ton of people.

 

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7 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

I will give Mike Ilitch credit for seeing the value of creating a single area as a sports/entertainment district and wanting to put that district in mid-town. That was not an inevitable outcome and Ilitch had as much to do as any other single person with all the teams ending up downtown and close enough for sports to produce a positive synergism with Greektown and the business district rebuild. Now it was certainly as much in his own organization's benefit as anyone else's, but that doesn't mean it still has not been a good result for Detroit. If the four teams were all scattered around the suburbs today I think it is a questionable argument that the run down properties owned by the Ilitches would be any more valuable under different ownership.

That said, there is very little true civic altruism, I think the best you can hope from the system is for people with resources to sometimes end up generating positive secondary effects from doing what they want to do for their own profit and ego reasons.

The difference with Ilitch here is that they promised a revitalization of downtown as a civic altruism, and they have thus far reneged on that promise.

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19 minutes ago, chasfh said:

The difference with Ilitch here is that they promised a revitalization of downtown as a civic altruism, and they have thus far reneged on that promise.

We do have a revival but it's not because of anything Ilitch did in my opinion.  it's all happening in areas away from their stuff.

Corktown is thriving in such a way that it never did when Tiger Stadium was there..

Chances are if you see an empty rotting building in the downtown/midtown area its an Ilitch property.

Oh... I forgot... they're putting a Starbucks in the area next to the Fox theater after they kicked out the previous tenant a few years ago

 

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6 minutes ago, Oblong said:

We do have a revival but it's not because of anything Ilitch did in my opinion.  it's all happening in areas away from their stuff.

Corktown is thriving in such a way that it never did when Tiger Stadium was there..

Chances are if you see an empty rotting building in the downtown/midtown area its an Ilitch property.

Oh... I forgot... they're putting a Starbucks in the area next to the Fox theater after they kicked out the previous tenant a few years ago

 

I thought the explicit premise was that the city would be revitalized by their District Detroit project, and yet they have added to the blight. I don't credit the District project for the incidental improvements like Corktown that may have occurred as a result of Ilitch-related projects prior to the District project.

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32 minutes ago, Oblong said:

But I'm not convinced that concentration is a good thing overall... when there's no event going on at Comerica or Ford Field that particular area is dead.  That's probably not Ilitchs fault as he didn't build I-375/I-75 like that and they had to build around it.  If they ever follow through with the plan to raze 375 and make it a boulevard like it used to be that would open things up.  Ford Field and Eastern Market is divided right now so you don't get the spillover.  If there's not an event then there's no need to be over there by the stadiums.  I drove by a few years ago on a Saturday night and Cheli's was closed. (This was before he closed it permanently).  Yet 1/4 mile away there's a ton of people.

 

375 removal would be such a huge plus but I don't think it happens unless the City can sweet talk a more urban friendly future  federal DOT into kicking in most of the $$.

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8 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I thought the explicit premise was that the city would be revitalized by their District Detroit project, and yet they have added to the blight. I don't credit the District project for the incidental improvements like Corktown that may have occurred as a result of Ilitch-related projects prior to the District project.

Oh, I wasn't trying to credit it either, or to say you did.  I say it's being done despite whatever Ilitch's people have done.  I'm not sure having side by side stadiums like Comerica and Ford Field is such a good thing... I'm not a civic planner though.    

The development on Michigan is stretching further West.... a few buildings across from the Highwaymen Club were recently sold.  Eventually it should connect up with the Livernois area in SW Detroit.  Would be great if Michigan was nice all that from where it ends downtown through Dearborn through to Ypsi. That's teh very long term goal to go along with a rail type thing

 

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11 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

375 removal would be such a huge plus but I don't think it happens unless the City can sweet talk a more urban friendly future  federal DOT into kicking in most of the $$.

I never knew about the history of that until several years ago when a facebook friend shared the story of Black Bottom.  Such history lost.  The 50's and 60's did so much damage to Detroit just in terms of how they laid things out... the riverfront area near Cobo, errrr... whatever it's called now.  The way the Lodge ends at Jefferson really blocks off prime real estate and then 375 on the other side dividing things... all to get the white people in and out quickly so that they don't have to spend too much time in Detroit (and to make sure they had to buy cars to get out to Livonia and N of the city.)

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30 minutes ago, Oblong said:

I never knew about the history of that until several years ago when a facebook friend shared the story of Black Bottom.  Such history lost.  The 50's and 60's did so much damage to Detroit just in terms of how they laid things out... the riverfront area near Cobo, errrr... whatever it's called now.  The way the Lodge ends at Jefferson really blocks off prime real estate and then 375 on the other side dividing things... all to get the white people in and out quickly so that they don't have to spend too much time in Detroit (and to make sure they had to buy cars to get out to Livonia and N of the city.)

I don't argue a bit with the 30,000 foot truth that it was suburban concerns trumped the City's interests all through the interstate construction era, but TBF just a bit, if you go back to the map of Detroit when the Lodge was built, the area to the west along Jefferson was mostly a dumpy warehouse district so there wasn't so much sense that you were cutting off development potential. Now that most of that old warehousing is spread out along the RR tracks in the western suburbs that land looks to have more potential. For that matter Jefferson east of 375 was also pretty ugly heavy industrial, there was a big Parke-Davis chemical plant and a lot of other unattractive stuff there (a tire factory I think also), which again, is all gone now  - which has opened up the east riverfront in ways unforeseeable when that stuff was still there. But yeah -  375 going north was always more  about 'clearing out' the lower east side than transportation needs.

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Also, it should be noted that while 50s/60s Robert Moses style "Urban Renewal" was a failure WRT it's stated goals, and it destroyed many functioning residential and commercial areas in cities around the US, it did also clear out a lot of pre-WW2 housing stock that was starting to fall apart and burn down with substandard and dangerous electrical and HVAC, and serious deferred maintenance. 

Cities like NY and Chicago went heavily in that direction, and had crummy housing high rises that were blights for a few decades...but then most of that was torn down in the last 20 years as low income housing became much more modern, safe, and integrated.

Unfortunately for Detroit, they went halfway into the Urban Renewal gambit, and had some of the negative impacts and some positives, but Detroit (like Toledo) is still stuck with a massive amount of old SF housing stock that is creating huge problems; problems that NY and Chicago have to contend less wifh (at least less than they would have) due to their having gone through the complete Renewal cycle.

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3 hours ago, tiger337 said:

Yes, it is.  He is one of the only good things that happened for the Tigers this year.  For what it's worth, he has almost the same ERA and a lower FIP than Boyd.  

You don't have to squint too much to see a future starting rotation that is good enough to launch a team into contention. As for the rest of the roster, well...

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6 hours ago, Oblong said:

But I'm not convinced that concentration is a good thing overall...

I think the one indisputable is that it preserved the teams as accessible to the whole metro area because the City remains the geographic center of the road (or whatever may eventually come) transportation network.. Seriously, how many people who live south and west of the Southfield and 8 mile ever went to a Piston's game at the Palace?  I think that is certainly good for all the teams long term revenue prospects - (well I suppose if makes no big diff to the Lions, since NFL revenue is a whole different animal---:ponder:)

And if all the teams are going to be in the city, then I think you do want them to share parking lots especially. Three or four different parking oceans in the central city would be nuts.

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5 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

375 removal would be such a huge plus but I don't think it happens unless the City can sweet talk a more urban friendly future  federal DOT into kicking in most of the $$.

Yeah.  It would be so beneficial to Detroit to make it more difficult for people from the affluent northern suburbs to get into downtown to work and spend money there.

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It makes me smile seeing the Cubs, Red Sox and Phillies (after breaking the bank for Harper) all miss the playoffs.  The cherry on top would be Cleveland missing as well. 

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15 minutes ago, six-hopper said:

Yeah.  It would be so beneficial to Detroit to make it more difficult for people from the affluent northern suburbs to get into downtown and spend money there.

375 is less than a mile long,  it doesn't move any one to Detroit from the Suburbs. A nice divided boulevard similar to Washington with 3 or 4 lanes each way as a feeder connecting Jefferson to I-75 would move just as much traffic and eliminate the canyon. 

Fun fact. I375 is shorter than the walk from gate 1 to gate 77 at the McNamara terminal.

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According to Bill James, with a week left in the season, Matt Boyd is ranked 44th on Bill James's Starting Pitcher Rankings. 

Fun fact: David Price is ranked 48th.

2019-09-25_15-31-28.thumb.jpg.96896e8aff40772b5c2d84d09bf5cb9e.jpg

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