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20 minutes ago, LooseGoose said:

Like walks used to be undervalued, you're undervaluing grit.

Grit is no substitute for scrappiness.

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On 2/2/2019 at 8:22 PM, cmu97 said:

To not have 1 and 3 retired on the same day, a year or two after they both retired, is just a travesty. No one is baseball has ever had what the Tigers did with Lou and Tram, and they continue to strike out with that. A statue with Tram feeding the ball to Lou is so long over due.

I very much agree with this point, and I think it extends beyond baseball too.  If Tram was going to get into the Hall, I really don't see *any* reason to keep Lou out.  I think the committee will eventually put Lou in, but why in the heck didn't they do them it together?  I don't think one could honestly look at Tram and say "Yes" but then look at Lou and say "No."

I'll certainly hear arguments that neither belongs, though I personally believe that both belong.  But I think the number of people who would argue that Tram, and ONLY Tram belongs in the Hall are very few and far between.

So why did the committee not put both in together?  

And now on a completely different note: I hate that there's such a thing as "First Ballot Hall of Famer."  I hate that a player might be considered Hall worthy, but not the first time he's up for a vote.  That's dumb and stupid, but it also isn't going to go away anytime soon, and because of that you have people like Lou who get dropped off way to early.

The fix, imho, is to simply make it necessary to get below the threshold of votes two years in a row.  Maybe even bump up the threshold percentage a bit if you're worried that not enough players will get dropped off the list, but make it two years in a row that it has to happen.

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1 hour ago, RedRamage said:

I very much agree with this point, and I think it extends beyond baseball too.  If Tram was going to get into the Hall, I really don't see *any* reason to keep Lou out.  I think the committee will eventually put Lou in, but why in the heck didn't they do them it together?  I don't think one could honestly look at Tram and say "Yes" but then look at Lou and say "No."

I'll certainly hear arguments that neither belongs, though I personally believe that both belong.  But I think the number of people who would argue that Tram, and ONLY Tram belongs in the Hall are very few and far between.

So why did the committee not put both in together?  

And now on a completely different note: I hate that there's such a thing as "First Ballot Hall of Famer."  I hate that a player might be considered Hall worthy, but not the first time he's up for a vote.  That's dumb and stupid, but it also isn't going to go away anytime soon, and because of that you have people like Lou who get dropped off way to early.

The fix, imho, is to simply make it necessary to get below the threshold of votes two years in a row.  Maybe even bump up the threshold percentage a bit if you're worried that not enough players will get dropped off the list, but make it two years in a row that it has to happen.

if youre a "peak" voter rather than a "longevity" voter, you could argue tram makes it and whitaker doesnt.  trammell's best seasons were better than whitaker's best seasons.  trammell also played a tougher defensive position and arguably was better at it than whitaker.

if youre a true "peak" voter, you probably wouldnt vote for either of them, but trammell had a better peak, iirc.  as in, his best seasons were better than whitaker's best seasons.

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Buddha hates Lou Whitaker.  He has a huge poster of Ryne Sandberg in bis bedroom.  

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I'm too young to really remember but during his playing days was there any talk amongst fans and experts alike about Lou being a Hall of Famer?  Not that it matters just curious. 

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3 hours ago, RedRamage said:

So why did the committee not put both in together?  

 

Lou wasn't on the last Veteran's ballot.  Would have made for a nice story, but might have diluted each player's accomplishment to go in as an "act." 

Lou is getting in, and it's going to be the most incredible, potentially cringe-worthy acceptance speech in HoF history.

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6 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

I'm too young to really remember but during his playing days was there any talk amongst fans and experts alike about Lou being a Hall of Famer?  Not that it matters just curious. 

Not really.  But there wasn't sports radio in those days like there is now.

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7 hours ago, tiger337 said:

Buddha hates Lou Whitaker.  He has a huge poster of Ryne Sandberg in bis bedroom.  

Lou Whitaker is in my top 5 tigers players of my lifetime!

Trammell, Verlander, Cabrera, Gibson, Whitaker.

I don't see what that Sandberg poster on my wall has to do with anything...

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23 minutes ago, Buddha said:

Lou Whitaker is in my top 5 tigers players of my lifetime!

Trammell, Verlander, Cabrera, Gibson, Whitaker.

I don't see what that Sandberg poster on my wall has to do with anything...

I always think of Sandberg whenever anyone says Whitaker has low peak value.  Sandberg vs Whitaker is the classic peak versus longevity argument.  

My five favorites are Whitaker, Trammell, Gibson, Fidrych, Granderson.  Verlander and Cabrera are great, but I find myself less attached to players now than I was when I was younger.  Granderson is an exception because of his unique connection to fans, Brian in particular.  

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40 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

I always think of Sandberg whenever anyone says Whitaker has low peak value.  Sandberg vs Whitaker is the classic peak versus longevity argument.  

My five favorites are Whitaker, Trammell, Gibson, Fidrych, Granderson.  Verlander and Cabrera are great, but I find myself less attached to players now than I was when I was younger.  Granderson is an exception because of his unique connection to fans, Brian in particular.  

fidrych is probably the most overrated tiger of all time.  One good season when he outperformed all of his metrics.  I vaguely remember that year and the excitement, the sports illustrated cover, the Monday night (I think it was Monday) win over the Yankees, but in hindsight it was just one fluke year.

#debbie downer

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If you only vaguely remember Fidrych, then you can't understand why people loved that season so much.  It doesn't matter if it was a fluke or whether he wouldn't have repeated that season even if he were healthy.  It was the single most exciting individual season in my lifetime.  There will never be anything like it again because anybody that is any good gets over hyped before they reach the majors now.   It was a truly magical season that transcends metrics.  

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8 hours ago, tiger337 said:

How could you not love this guy:

 

It's like the guy you were on the back roads drinking Old Milwaukee in the summer of '75 surfaced in MLB in '76 with a 8-1 record and a 2.06 era for a pretty bad team.  It was a fun year followed by heartbreak.....

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10 hours ago, Buddha said:

Not really.  But there wasn't sports radio in those days like there is now.

I distinctly remember Peter Gammons talking about Lou being a hall of famer on the Fabulous Sports Babe ESPN radio show.... 

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On 2/15/2019 at 7:48 AM, LooseGoose said:

It's like the guy you were on the back roads drinking Old Milwaukee in the summer of '75 surfaced in MLB in '76 with a 8-1 record and a 2.06 era for a pretty bad team.  It was a fun year followed by heartbreak.....

Lightning in a bottle that year. Every once in a while I go back and look at his stats that year just to remind myself how unbelievable that was. 24 complete games? unreal. Everyone knows he was rookie of the year, but I had actually forgotten he finished 2nd in the cy young voting to Jim Palmer that year. Just an amazing story. Gone way too young though- he was a terrific ambassador for the tigers and for baseball. 

imagesthe-bird-billboard-4-15-09lr.jpg

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Just for the record, it should be noted that I liked Stan's post  

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On ‎2‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 8:33 PM, tiger337 said:

The Hall of Fame voters historically have not been kind to catchers and third basemen.  Here are the numbers of Hall of Famers at each position:

C 18

1B 24

2B 21

SS 25

3B 17

LF 22

CF 24

RF 25

I think catchers get overlooked because they have short careers due to the demands of the position.  That does not seem fair.  Freehan's problem goes beyond that though.  Much like Whitaker, he was virtually ignored in his first year on the ballot (only two votes).  Freehan is not a first ballot type talent, but you can make a very strong case for him by statistical and traditional criteria.  I am not sure how how he only got two votes.  What makes it really odd is that he was highly regarded when he played -  11 all-star games, 5 gold gloves and finished in the top 10 in MVP voting 3 times.  He also played a major role on a championship team.  These are things that the voters have traditionally talked about in support of other players

Well, they better put Joe Mauer in then, because that guy had a 3 or 4 year stretch when he was just dynamite at the plate.

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On Saturday, February 02, 2019 at 8:33 PM, tiger337 said:

The Hall of Fame voters historically have not been kind to catchers and third basemen.  Here are the numbers of Hall of Famers at each position:

C 18

1B 24

2B 21

SS 25

3B 17

LF 22

CF 24

RF 25

I think catchers get overlooked because they have short careers due to the demands of the position.  That does not seem fair.  Freehan's problem goes beyond that though.  Much like Whitaker, he was virtually ignored in his first year on the ballot (only two votes).  Freehan is not a first ballot type talent, but you can make a very strong case for him by statistical and traditional criteria.  I am not sure how how he only got two votes.  What makes it really odd is that he was highly regarded when he played -  11 all-star games, 5 gold gloves and finished in the top 10 in MVP voting 3 times.  He also played a major role on a championship team.  These are things that the voters have traditionally talked about in support of other players

I think that Freehan may have been a victim of timing.  His career was bracketed by or overlapped with those of guys like Campanella, Berra, Howard, Bench,  Munson, Fisk, Parrish, and Carter. They, along with Freehan, comprised a real concentration of  talent at the position, and he may have been lost in the shuffle.

Another timing misfortune was that he played much of his career in an era of severely depressed offense, so he doesn't have superficially gaudy batting statistics.  Bill James has commented quite a bit on the overvaluing of many guys from the high-offense late Twenties and early Thirties, and the corresponding underrating of guys who played in the Sixties and early Seventies.

Freehan was one of the first two Tigers I ever met -- when I was in Little League,  he and Joe Sparma made an appearance and signed autographs, and my parents took me to it.  I think it was at the Livonia Mall.

Many years later, when he was the baseball coach at Michigan, he sat next to me at a high school basketball game in which a kid he was recruiting was playing.  Seemed like a nice guy, for someone whom I considered a baseball god.

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5 minutes ago, six-hopper said:

Seemed like a nice guy, for someone whom I considered a baseball god.

I know how you felt.   It was great to find out some of the message board gods here were nice people.

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