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The National Emergency Over the Wall

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4 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

Absolutely.  But as with all things, we have variables.  Did you buy too small of a house that doesn't meet your needs today?  

Again, i'm not saying the wall is the end all be all.  I'm just saying there are people that have nothing to gain politically that believe more wall will help. Even if they are correct that it will help, you're right to say that it doesn't mean it'll help enough to justify it.  Still there are some that are adamant that it's a need.  I've heard nothing saying a wall across the entire border will help, just some more wall in specific areas.   

He's already got money to build wall in specific areas, and he says repeatedly he's already doing it, so what's the problem?

 

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7 minutes ago, pfife said:

He's already got money to build wall in specific areas, and he says repeatedly he's already doing it, so what's the problem?

 

Well, i'd say the problem is he's lying, as both you and me know he only has money to make repairs and update parts of the current wall.

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That casual relationship with the truth (an understatemen if there ever was one) really damages the credibility of the administration when they try to make their case for border wall funding and why it is necessary.

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7 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

That casual relationship with the truth (an understatemen if there ever was one) really damages the credibility of the administration when they try to make their case for border wall funding and why it is necessary.

This administration has no credibility.  It is literally the Crying Wolf Administration.

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45 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

Well, i'd say the problem is he's lying

yes, that is one of his biggest problems.  

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39 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

That casual relationship with the truth (an understatemen if there ever was one) really damages the credibility of the administration when they try to make their case for border wall funding and why it is necessary.

Exactly, which is why i'm asking folks to not use Trumps talking points (not really the dems talking points either) and see if maybe there might be a good solution in the middle, and then hope we get that.

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11 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

Exactly, which is why i'm asking folks to not use Trumps talking points (not really the dems talking points either) and see if maybe there might be a good solution in the middle, and then hope we get that.

You're asking people to ignore the words of the words of the man who has the responsibility (unless there's a veto override) of signing whatever border security bill is produced into law.

That's not how this works.

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I will not ignore his words.

i will not guess what “he really means”.

No. I’m not doing that.

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8 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

You're asking people to ignore the words of the words of the man who has the responsibility (unless there's a veto override) of signing whatever border security bill is produced into law.

That's not how this works.

Eric's arguments make sense in a "normal" presidency, which is where I suspect his line of thinking comes from (harking back to Bush years more specifically).  

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Is this like Pompeo where we're supposed to ignore what was said, which was in line with what others in the admin has said, and instead try to imagine that he meant something else because it makes the person look better?

 

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35 minutes ago, smr-nj said:

I will not ignore his words.

i will not guess what “he really means”.

No. I’m not doing that.

Nothing he says means anything anyway.  It's all BS.  He says whatever is convenient at the moment regardless of whether it's truthful or logical.  

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1 hour ago, ewsieg said:

Exactly, which is why i'm asking folks to not use Trumps talking points (not really the dems talking points either) and see if maybe there might be a good solution in the middle, and then hope we get that.

What if I think we literally are at the good solution in the middle right now?

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On 1/28/2019 at 8:29 AM, RatkoVarda said:

I am sure that all MAGAers would be volunteering to go die in the streets of Caracas so we could get its oil wells back

And Bolton just comes right out and says that we want their oil

 

 

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29 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

Nothing he says means anything anyway.  It's all BS.  He says whatever is convenient at the moment regardless of whether it's truthful or logical.  

We're supposed to take Trump seriously while we aren't supposed to take him seriously.  He's a politician's politician.

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10 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said:

And Bolton just comes right out and says that we want their oil

Trump's in a precarious position -- he probably wants to invade Venezuela as a power move, but the American people (including a good part if not most of his base) see no need to get involved.  Bolton hasn't met a war he didn't like, but Trump hasn't met a poll he's not obsessed with, and those poll numbers will be what keeps Trump from starting another war.

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31 minutes ago, Oblong said:

Is this like Pompeo where we're supposed to ignore what was said, which was in line with what others in the admin has said, and instead try to imagine that he meant something else because it makes the person look better?

 

Well, again, Pompeo's words were taken out of context, at least in that specific exchange. 

46 minutes ago, smr-nj said:

I will not ignore his words.

i will not guess what “he really means”.

No. I’m not doing that.

I'm not asking you to ignore his words.  Use exactly what he's saying as a reason to not vote for him next time around.  What I'm asking is that you don't choose whether you support something based on if Trump supports it, but rather on the facts and reasoning's you find the most important.  

23 minutes ago, pfife said:

What if I think we literally are at the good solution in the middle right now?

It's possible you are right.  Again, i'm basing my belief that more border wall is needed based on what the border patrol is saying.    So far the debate has not been about the pros and cons of a wall, it's been about why Trump is saying we need them and how big of an idiot he is. It's fun, I understand it.  I laugh at the gif meme's of some ladder climbing contests some firefighters are doing with a little caption of 'Mexico is already preparing for the wall'.  

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7 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

What I'm asking is that you don't choose whether you support something based on if Trump supports it, but rather on the facts and reasoning's you find the most important.  

 

8 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

So far the debate has not been about the pros and cons of a wall, it's been about why Trump is saying we need them and how big of an idiot he is. It's fun, I understand it.  I laugh at the gif meme's of some ladder climbing contests some firefighters are doing with a little caption of 'Mexico is already preparing for the wall'.  

There has been plenty of discussion on this very board as to the valid reasons why the wall is a bad idea that do not involve the President or his advocacy for the wall.

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7 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

What I'm asking is that you don't choose whether you support something based on if Trump supports it, but rather on the facts and reasoning's you find the most important.

Why would you presume otherwise?

Who is this comment directed at?

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33 minutes ago, Euphdude said:

Trump's in a precarious position -- he probably wants to invade Venezuela as a power move, but the American people (including a good part if not most of his base) see no need to get involved.  Bolton hasn't met a war he didn't like, but Trump hasn't met a poll he's not obsessed with, and those poll numbers will be what keeps Trump from starting another war.

Not starting wars has been the one good thing about Trump's presidency.  

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16 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

Well, again, Pompeo's words were taken out of context, at least in that specific exchange. 

I'm not asking you to ignore his words.  Use exactly what he's saying as a reason to not vote for him next time around.  What I'm asking is that you don't choose whether you support something based on if Trump supports it, but rather on the facts and reasoning's you find the most important.  

It's possible you are right.  Again, i'm basing my belief that more border wall is needed based on what the border patrol is saying.    So far the debate has not been about the pros and cons of a wall, it's been about why Trump is saying we need them and how big of an idiot he is. It's fun, I understand it.  I laugh at the gif meme's of some ladder climbing contests some firefighters are doing with a little caption of 'Mexico is already preparing for the wall'.  

I've heard quite a bit of discussion about the pros and cons of a wall.   There are many, in positions to know, that say a wall is not what is needed.

 

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3 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

There has been plenty of discussion on this very board as to the valid reasons why the wall is a bad idea that do not involve the President or his advocacy for the wall.

I've heard a few. But mostly I hear democratic talking points that are specific to Trump's ludicrous statements and not specific reasons on the wall itself or ones that don't pass the scrutiny test.  No scrutiny is being given to any democratic talking point right now.  I fully agree Trumps deserve more scrutiny.

Democratic talking point 1 (Made in response to Trump saying drugs are coming through the open border as a reason for the wall) - The Wall won't stop this, everyone knows drugs come in at the ports of entry.  

That is a legitimate talking point to Trumps insistence on using inaccurate information.  That said, the agency that controls the borders and ports say more wall will help them focus their efforts on those ports of entry.  No one is asking those questions to the folks opposing the wall.  

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So I have these walls that keep the cold out, so maybe Dump can declare a state of emergency to build a wall to keep this polar vortex out.

 

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Even if the agency that controls the borders and ports say more wall helps them (not sure the agency has done that, but conceding the point for the purposes of discussion), it does not necessarily follow that the cost is worth the benefit, nor does it necessarily say there aren't more efficient uses of those funds further presuming the benefit can be shown to be worth the cost.

My objections are rooted in the idea we have much, much bigger / important things we should be focusing our collective efforts on addressing.  Especially given tax revenues are going to be reduced from the Trump tax cut.

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