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Tenacious D

2019 MLB Hall of Fame

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58 minutes ago, Keepleyland2 said:

As I said the saber numbers make it easy, I get it. 

But, as I said the counting numbers. Awards, etc. He's not even close. 

And then when you compare him to other hitters of his time, did anyone at that time thing of him as one of the best? nope. I just don't get all the love when we look back. I think some of its is trying to find some good players we know weren't on steriods to put in from the era. And I'm not saying one way or the other, but I am saying his career basically didn't start until age 27 and his peak was 31-37. 

The saber numbers not only make it easy, but they are better measures of success than  hits and MVP votes.  I don't care about MVP votes.  The Hall of Fame voters are the same voters in many cases who voted for MVP, so you can have the same group of voters penalizing the same player twice.  As a DH. he needed to be an elite hitter to get into the HoF and he was.  Martinez was undeniably one of the best hitters in his era and surrounding eras.  So, it comes down to whether someone values peak versus longevity.  I believe he had enough great years to qualify.  

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47 minutes ago, 1776 said:

Agreed. Additionally, Bonds is a screaming NO! 

Personally, I don't see how one can take the HoF seriously without Bonds and Clemens in it.  

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28 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

 As a DH. he needed to be an elite hitter to get into the HoF and he was. 

This summarizes Martinez rather well.

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32 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

Personally, I don't see how one can take the HoF seriously without Bonds and Clemens in it.  

I imagine a lot people feel the same wrt Pete Rose. Neither omission bothers me.

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They should build a Hall of Shame near the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown. It would draw.

Black Sox, Shoeless Joe, Pete Rose, Bonds, Clemens... Could call it the Bad Boys Hall... Gambling in the 1800's through until Kennesaw Mountain Landis, his efforts to clean up the game. Racial animus. Lots of interesting aspects of the game it could highlight...

Including putting positive spin on some of these negatives... what great players were Shoeless Joe, Rose Bonds & Clemens & others... McGwire vs. Sosa's race that reignited interest in the game, the efforts to break the color barrier after all the previous bigotry, the job Landis did to try and clean up the game, etc...

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11 minutes ago, LooseGoose said:

This summarizes Martinez rather well.

But, see I'm not sure he was. 

His saber numbers are good but things like hits, dingers, RBI fall short. Especially when you compare him to other hitters of that time. 

Now, I'm not a guy that's like wooooo Batting Average, what's with all this math. I'm just saying one one thing says this guy is an all-timer, and a bunch of other stuff says, not so fast. It causes me pause. It's that pause, that makes me say not a Hall of Famer.

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23 hours ago, LooseGoose said:

With Santo in you could easily make a case for Rolen.

I hate that argument though. If I were a voter I would assume the bottom 10% of the hall shouldn't be there, so being better than one or two guys in the hall should never be enough by itself.

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1 hour ago, Gehringer_2 said:

I imagine a lot people feel the same wrt Pete Rose. Neither omission bothers me.

Pete Rose was a completely different case as has been discussed here many times.  

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58 minutes ago, Keepleyland2 said:

But, see I'm not sure he was. 

His saber numbers are good but things like hits, dingers, RBI fall short. Especially when you compare him to other hitters of that time. 

Now, I'm not a guy that's like wooooo Batting Average, what's with all this math. I'm just saying one one thing says this guy is an all-timer, and a bunch of other stuff says, not so fast. It causes me pause. It's that pause, that makes me say not a Hall of Famer.

The saber numbers tell you more than hits, homers and RBI.  If you want a number that incorporates counting stats, then WAR or runs created works.  He doesn't rank quite as well there because of his shorter career peak.  It's fine if you don't think he's a Hall of Famer due to a shortish career and not playing a position.  He is not an upper tier Hall of Famer, but you can't say he wasn't a great hitter.  

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Also, when we are talking about the Hall of Fame, we shouldn't use the term Dingers.  Not dignified enough for historical discussions!

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1 hour ago, tiger337 said:

Personally, I don't see how one can take the HoF seriously without Bonds and Clemens in it.  

In my opinion Bonds and other named players cheated. I’ll never see it differently. I’m old school and I can’t accept how Maris’ single season HR record was broken by a cheater. The integrity of the game was compromised by these clowns.

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15 minutes ago, 1776 said:

In my opinion Bonds and other named players cheated. I’ll never see it differently. I’m old school and I can’t accept how Maris’ single season HR record was broken by a cheater. The integrity of the game was compromised by these clowns.

Everybody was using the stuff back then and nobody seemed to care, so why does everyone focus on Bonds?

Maris wasn't even that good and then all of the sudden he crushed 61 homeruns.  Why is his legitimacy never questioned?  What was he taking?

It was pretty much accepted that all the NFL players were taking it, so why were people so surprised when they found out about baseball players using it?  

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27 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

Also, when we are talking about the Hall of Fame, we shouldn't use the term Dingers.  Not dignified enough for historical discussions!

Big Al begs to differ.

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45 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

Pete Rose was a completely different case

that is one view. In another a violation of the rules and lying about it is a violation of a rules and lying about it. In that view it's immaterial how many other guys did it, they aren't up for the hall.

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2 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

 

Big Al begs to differ.

It's hard to argue with Kaline but what was the context?  Did Miguel Cabrera hit the Dinger?  Or was it Norm Cash?  

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5 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

It's hard to argue with Kaline but what was the context?  Did Miguel Cabrera hit the Dinger?  Or was it Norm Cash?  

No-NO! LOL  - not Kaline. I couldn't find the post but you remember some one posted the kid at the little league introductions? Big stocky kid with a voice like a 65 yr old smoker: "They call me Big Al, and I hit dingers" 

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1 minute ago, Gehringer_2 said:

that is one view. In another a violation of the rules and lying about it is a violation of a rules and lying about it. In that view it's immaterial how many other guys did it, they aren't up for the hall.

But when you gamble on the game, you run the risk of cheating to lose which absolutely destroys the integrity of the game.  When you take steroids, you are cheating to win.  It's unfair to the players who don't want to take them, but the integrity of the game itself is not really compromised.  Once the game starts, it is still two teams competing to win.  

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1 minute ago, Gehringer_2 said:

No-NO! LOL  - not Kaline. I couldn't find the post but you remember some one posted the kid at the little league introductions: "I'm Big Al, and I hit dingers" 

lol, OK.  It would be disappointing if the old curmudgeon Kaline talked about dingers.  

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I think it's unfair to leave out steroid users that already had HOF careers years before they ever used them.  If Cabrera decides to start using them tomorrow and ends up getting busted should he not make the HOF?

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1 hour ago, RandyMarsh said:

I think it's unfair to leave out steroid users that already had HOF careers years before they ever used them.  If Cabrera decides to start using them tomorrow and ends up getting busted should he not make the HOF?

I also judge players differently if they tested positive for PEDs as it is now more clearly established that drug use is forbidden and taboo.  For that reason, I would penalize a borderline candidate like Manny Ramirez.  If a truly elite player like Cabrera tested positive, I would still vote for him.  

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1 hour ago, tiger337 said:

Everybody was using the stuff back then and nobody seemed to care, so why does everyone focus on Bonds?

Maris wasn't even that good and then all of the sudden he crushed 61 homeruns.  Why is his legitimacy never questioned?  What was he taking?

It was pretty much accepted that all the NFL players were taking it, so why were people so surprised when they found out about baseball players using it?  

Bonds and McWire were the poster boys of steroid use. That’s a fact of the times. If either of ghese guys get in it would be a shame.

What gives you reason to bring into question Maris’ legitimacy? There is no question regarding Bonds and company. Do you have something regarding Maris?

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2 minutes ago, 1776 said:

Bonds and McWire were the poster boys of steroid use. That’s a fact of the times. If either of ghese guys get in it would be a shame.

What gives you reason to bring into question Maris’ legitimacy? There is no question regarding Bonds and company. Do you have something regarding Maris?

They are poster boys because they hit a lot of homeruns.  That doesn't mean they "cheated" more than other players did.  I still maintain the biggest reasons for the explosion in power during that period were rapid expansion diluting pitching staffs, smaller parks and juiced balls.  I don't think players benefited from steroids as much as people think.  It was a league wide power surge.  The same thing happened the last couple of years because they juiced up the balls.  

I don't have any evidence that Maris took steroids, although he likely took amphetamines like most players did (which are just as bad bad as taking steroids as far as I am concerned).  It's just that when anybody has an out of character season today, everybody says they are juiced, but nobody questioned Maris.   

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Sounds like Maris is guilty until proven innocent.

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12 minutes ago, 1776 said:

Sounds like Maris is guilty until proven innocent.

I didn't say he was guilty.  I just think it's interesting that a player who never hit 40 homeruns in any other season hit 61 in a season.  If that happened today, it would be questioned.

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Of course it would be questioned today. There is a history today that didn't exist in 1961.

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