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ROMAD1

Directions and Objectives For A Future Mainstream Party

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1 minute ago, Buddha said:

more hispanics like donald trump than people seem to think.

Which means that's a group the Democrats can make inroads with. Hillary still won the majority of the Hispanic vote but not nearly by the same margin as with black voters. Hillary won the swing states with higher Mexican populations (Nevada and Colorado) and lost the swing states with the higher Cuban population (Florida). Trump's wall rhetoric doesn't apply to Cubans. Maybe his handling of Puerto Rico will affect his chances in Florida.

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2 minutes ago, ROMAD1 said:

I'm not inclined to ever go back to a GOP that features these shambling eunuchs and drunken closet cases.

 

This still does crack me up a bit.  Doesn't make what Trump did was right, but the narrative that absolutely nothing wrong happened with Hunter/Joe is funny.   And i'm not saying nothing illegal happened, but I do think if the tables were turned, if this was Eric Jr or Don and not Hunter, the calls for investigation would have been screamed from day 1. 

I know the belief apparently is that you can't say this as it lends Trump credence to what he did, but can't we at least say the Biden stuff is shady AND trump was wrong to use the office of the presidency to get a foreign gov't to investigate it when no one would pursue in the US? 

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1 minute ago, ewsieg said:

This still does crack me up a bit.  Doesn't make what Trump did was right, but the narrative that absolutely nothing wrong happened with Hunter/Joe is funny.   And i'm not saying nothing illegal happened, but I do think if the tables were turned, if this was Eric Jr or Don and not Hunter, the calls for investigation would have been screamed from day 1. 

I know the belief apparently is that you can't say this as it lends Trump credence to what he did, but can't we at least say the Biden stuff is shady AND trump was wrong to use the office of the presidency to get a foreign gov't to investigate it when no one would pursue in the US? 

Ivanka and Junior have been doing the same thing and no investigations to date.

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12 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Ivanka and Junior have been doing the same thing and no investigations to date.

What are you referring to as I can't think of anything but the trademarks for Ivanka.

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10 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

This still does crack me up a bit.  Doesn't make what Trump did was right, but the narrative that absolutely nothing wrong happened with Hunter/Joe is funny.   And i'm not saying nothing illegal happened, but I do think if the tables were turned, if this was Eric Jr or Don and not Hunter, the calls for investigation would have been screamed from day 1. 

 

I mostly agree with this.  I want to see Trump impeached because of his whole embarrassing body of work, but with respect Ukraine I do think if he were a Democrat, the Democrats would be supporting him now and the Republicans would be impeaching him.  I think it's obvious that he did what he is being accused of and it's very wrong, but it's also very political.  

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32 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

I keep going further left as I age, but I am odd.

 

I don't think it is odd at all. I think that what happens is that as we age we all tend to put more questions that used to be in the 'open' bucket into the 'decided' bucket. That tends to re-radicalize us in a minor kind of way. While it was the left, liberal and artistic segments of the baby-boom generation that dominated culture, I don't really believe the baby boom on the whole in absolute numbers was ever more left than right and what we see in the aging-->fox audience-->GOP supporter is just the conservative tendencies that the older boomers have always had just hardening somewhat. But there are also a lot of us out there who were McGovernites in 1972 and a lot of us after wandering around politically during our family and kids years are also returning to a harder liberalism.

I think there is also another issue in the very old around loss of agency making people more fearful, but I tend to think the above is the much bigger effect.

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6 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

What are you referring to as I can't think of anything but the trademarks for Ivanka.

666 5th Avenue.

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Just now, tiger337 said:

I mostly agree with this.  I want to see Trump impeached because of his whole embarrassing body of work, but with respect Ukraine I do think if he were a Democrat, the Democrats would be supporting him now and the Republicans would be impeaching him.  I think it's obvious that he did what he is being accused of and it's very wrong, but it's also very political.  

Impeachment can definitely be a political tool.  That doesn't make it wrong or bad either.  I don't want to see Trump impeached due to any of his body of work.  While folks can be upset about that, it's not impeachable to not be popular or be an ***.  Definitely want to see him gone, but more than willing to let the rule of law give us the opportunity to do it come next year.  

But then Ukraine came.  There is an argument for Trump.  For a person that says stuff off the cuff so often, he did a great job of using 'mob' talk.  That gives him the ability to make that case, but we all know what he was trying.

There is a bit of me that wonders if Trump believes there is something illegal with the Bidens/Ukraine.  Not sure if it matters in the grand scheme, but if he truly believes there was something illegal, I give Trump a little more sympathy as I push for removal.  The reason is, if he was trying to get it announced only for the political questions it puts on Biden, it's the exact "swamp" crap he claims he's trying to get rid of, if he truly believes there is something to an investigation, he may believe this is the only way to fight the swamp as he can't get it done in the US.

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27 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

This still does crack me up a bit.  Doesn't make what Trump did was right, but the narrative that absolutely nothing wrong happened with Hunter/Joe is funny.   And i'm not saying nothing illegal happened, but I do think if the tables were turned, if this was Eric Jr or Don and not Hunter, the calls for investigation would have been screamed from day 1. 

I know the belief apparently is that you can't say this as it lends Trump credence to what he did, but can't we at least say the Biden stuff is shady AND trump was wrong to use the office of the presidency to get a foreign gov't to investigate it when no one would pursue in the US? 

Dude Eric and Don Jr *ARE* doing what Hunter did (profitting off Dad's presidency) and no one is screaming for an investigation.  I don't understand how this is even a hypothetical, let alone that the resulting hypothetical is antithetical to reality.

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12 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

What are you referring to as I can't think of anything but the trademarks for Ivanka.

Well just recently the RNC just bulk purchased a crapload of Jr's book, that's one within the past month.   He also retroactively got a permit to hunt endangered sheep in mongolia after he had already killed one.

That's not even considering that technically Trump isn't supposed to be in control of his properties (per his own promises) which are under control of his sons ( per his own promises) and he Trump takes secret service there at least weekly, banking all of the money for their hospitality every time.

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9 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

Impeachment can definitely be a political tool.  That doesn't make it wrong or bad either.  I don't want to see Trump impeached due to any of his body of work.  While folks can be upset about that, it's not impeachable to not be popular or be an ***.  Definitely want to see him gone, but more than willing to let the rule of law give us the opportunity to do it come next year.  

But then Ukraine came.  There is an argument for Trump.  For a person that says stuff off the cuff so often, he did a great job of using 'mob' talk.  That gives him the ability to make that case, but we all know what he was trying.

There is a bit of me that wonders if Trump believes there is something illegal with the Bidens/Ukraine.  Not sure if it matters in the grand scheme, but if he truly believes there was something illegal, I give Trump a little more sympathy as I push for removal.  The reason is, if he was trying to get it announced only for the political questions it puts on Biden, it's the exact "swamp" crap he claims he's trying to get rid of, if he truly believes there is something to an investigation, he may believe this is the only way to fight the swamp as he can't get it done in the US.

I don't think he thinks there's really something "illegal" b/c he was concerned about Zelenskyy ANNOUNCING an investigation, not particularly concerned about him actually conducting one.

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6 minutes ago, pfife said:

I don't think he thinks there's really something "illegal" b/c he was concerned about Zelenskyy ANNOUNCING an investigation, not particularly concerned about him actually conducting one.

yeah - the hearing demolished that argument. You already have the most corruption fighting ambassador on site and you can her and slide the portfolio to a crony while taking your time just to appoint an 'interim', and you have your people in bed with Lutsenko? Who are we kidding here?

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3 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

yeah - the hearing demolished that argument. You already have the most corruption fighting ambassador on site and you can her and slide the portfolio to a crony while taking your time just to appoint an 'interim'. Who are we kidding here?

if only we lived in a sane world.....

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18 minutes ago, pfife said:

Well just recently the RNC just bulk purchased a crapload of Jr's book, that's one within the past month.   He also retroactively got a permit to hunt endangered sheep in mongolia after he had already killed one..

Was just about to bring up the book sales.

It's absolutely laughable to "if this were ____" this stuff when these guys basically get away with much worse behavior with a small fraction of the scrutiny. 

Just another example of how the Trumps are held, by some, to a lower standard of conduct than anyone else

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10 minutes ago, ROMAD1 said:

666 5th Avenue.

Qatar

 

My bad, so let's say Ivanka, Don, Eric were doing something that a normal person could easily connect the dots with something sketchy.  You know, let's say they just came off a coke bender that cost them a job, and walked into a 50k a month job for a company with ties to Putin and under increased scrutiny due to corruption in a country that your dad was the point man instructed to deal with corruption there.  I mean to me and most people I know, they smell a possibility of an ethical issue based on that alone.

Whereas you need Michael Moore to point to Kushner, who is already involved in real estate, works to unload a building that isn't making money as they bought it and got screwed by the 2008 recession (I thought the rich set this all up, how could he get screwed by it like everyone else, but I digress).  He works with a Canadian company (that deals with real estate) and gives incentives to get out of the building.  Then after the fact, due to intense journalistic scrutiny, we learn that the Canadian company invests money from Qatar and Qatar states they didn't have any knowledge...which by itself isn't a big deal either, but where is Qatar located....near Saudi Arabia and who is Kushner's best friend, yup, MBS.  Moore can make it convincing, but not everyone is willing to sit for 90 minutes and focus on the map that will show everything greyed out on a middle east map except Saudi Arabia and Qatar, driving the idea that they are essentially the same country they are so close.

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1 minute ago, ewsieg said:

My bad, so let's say Ivanka, Don, Eric were doing something that a normal person could easily connect the dots with something sketchy.  You know, let's say they just came off a coke bender that cost them a job, and walked into a 50k a month job for a company with ties to Putin and under increased scrutiny due to corruption in a country that your dad was the point man instructed to deal with corruption there.  I mean to me and most people I know, they smell a possibility of an ethical issue based on that alone.

 

Who's being unethical here though?

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11 minutes ago, pfife said:

I don't think he thinks there's really something "illegal" b/c he was concerned about Zelenskyy ANNOUNCING an investigation, not particularly concerned about him actually conducting one.

He absolutely wanted the political pressure on Biden, which is in part why I think he should be removed.  That said, I don't think there is any real evidence that says if he really cared if one was conducted or not.  IMO, he's been around enough politicians and knows how dirty most of them are, as such, I have a feeling he really thinks there is something there.  And to stress, I don't think that makes it right.  

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1 minute ago, ewsieg said:

He absolutely wanted the political pressure on Biden, which is in part why I think he should be removed.  That said, I don't think there is any real evidence that says if he really cared if one was conducted or not.  IMO, he's been around enough politicians and knows how dirty most of them are, as such, I have a feeling he really thinks there is something there.  And to stress, I don't think that makes it right.  

There was at least one person that testified affirmitely wanted an announcement.  The "transcript" though did say he Zelenskyy to "look into it".

 

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2 minutes ago, pfife said:

Who's being unethical here though?

Again, it's not just about being unethical. I don't know if anything unethical happened.  I want politicians that are willing to not only be ethical, but to do everything to show the appearance of ethics as well.

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5 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

Again, it's not just about being unethical. I don't know if anything unethical happened.  I want politicians that are willing to not only be ethical, but to do everything to show the appearance of ethics as well.

Let's look at this situation though.  Since you're talking about politicians, Joe Biden is a politician.   What could/should he have done about his son's employer and employment in order to either a) be more ethical, and/or b) make Joe Biden show the appearance of being more ethical?

Biden is out there saying he didn't have any contact w/ Hunter about his employment there.  If we take this at face value, what else is he to do?    

Personally, I think it's absolutely wrong for people to argue that Hunter should not take that job.   If a company wants to pay him, and he wants them to pay him, it's not incumbent upon HIM to sacrifice for the appearance of ethics for his father, for benefit of his father's political aspirations.  Joe Biden needs to take the steps to ensure there was no conflict of interest.   

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16 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

My bad, so let's say Ivanka, Don, Eric were doing something that a normal person could easily connect the dots with something sketchy.  You know, let's say they just came off a coke bender that cost them a job, and walked into a 50k a month job for a company with ties to Putin and under increased scrutiny due to corruption in a country that your dad was the point man instructed to deal with corruption there.  I mean to me and most people I know, they smell a possibility of an ethical issue based on that alone.

Whereas you need Michael Moore to point to Kushner, who is already involved in real estate, works to unload a building that isn't making money as they bought it and got screwed by the 2008 recession (I thought the rich set this all up, how could he get screwed by it like everyone else, but I digress).  He works with a Canadian company (that deals with real estate) and gives incentives to get out of the building.  Then after the fact, due to intense journalistic scrutiny, we learn that the Canadian company invests money from Qatar and Qatar states they didn't have any knowledge...which by itself isn't a big deal either, but where is Qatar located....near Saudi Arabia and who is Kushner's best friend, yup, MBS.  Moore can make it convincing, but not everyone is willing to sit for 90 minutes and focus on the map that will show everything greyed out on a middle east map except Saudi Arabia and Qatar, driving the idea that they are essentially the same country they are so close.

One more thing, you seem to be excusing complicated corruption here.  I don't think that's actually what you're doing, but that's what it reads like.   Do normal people's children usually get hired by corrupt Ukrainian gas companies because their father is VP of the US?

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1 minute ago, pfife said:

Let's look at this situation though.  Since you're talking about politicians, Joe Biden is a politician.   What could/should he have done about his son's employer and employment in order to either a) be more ethical, and/or b) make Joe Biden show the appearance of being more ethical?

Biden is out there saying he didn't have any contact w/ Hunter about his employment there.  If we take this at face value, what else is he to do?    

Personally, I think it's absolutely wrong for people to argue that Hunter should not take that job.   If a company wants to pay him, and he wants them to pay him, it's not incumbent upon HIM to sacrifice for the appearance of ethics for his father.   Biden needs to take the steps to ensure there was no conflict of interest.   

i'm not saying Hunter shouldn't take the job.  But I am saying Obama should not have let Joe have any role and/or Joe should have recused himself.  I think the following is an apples to apples comparison, but I guess we need to agree on one thing

Can you agree that Joe Biden was heading the US side in anti-corruption measures at any time that the world was actively working with Ukraine and if at any point, Joe Biden's timeline in the role overlapped with Hunter Biden's timeline at Burisma?

If you said yes, then here is my comparison.

If Trump saying 'do us a favor', when Ukraine knows hundreds of millions of dollars hasn't been delivered to them yet, is pressure to announce an investigation which directly leads to something unethical (actually illegal as it's the crux of the impeachment argument).  Then couldn't you surmise that the president of Ukraine, after getting off of calls with Biden, when he knew billions in aid was not delivered yet, and Biden is telling him to root out corruption, is it possible in the slightest he got off of the phone and said 'hey guys, we have to show something, but fyi, the same guy telling me to root this out, also has a son on Burisma, so take that as you will and lets do what is needed to get our aid'?

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1 minute ago, ewsieg said:

i'm not saying Hunter shouldn't take the job.  But I am saying Obama should not have let Joe have any role and/or Joe should have recused himself.  I think the following is an apples to apples comparison, but I guess we need to agree on one thing

Can you agree that Joe Biden was heading the US side in anti-corruption measures at any time that the world was actively working with Ukraine and if at any point, Joe Biden's timeline in the role overlapped with Hunter Biden's timeline at Burisma?

If you said yes, then here is my comparison.

If Trump saying 'do us a favor', when Ukraine knows hundreds of millions of dollars hasn't been delivered to them yet, is pressure to announce an investigation which directly leads to something unethical (actually illegal as it's the crux of the impeachment argument).  Then couldn't you surmise that the president of Ukraine, after getting off of calls with Biden, when he knew billions in aid was not delivered yet, and Biden is telling him to root out corruption, is it possible in the slightest he got off of the phone and said 'hey guys, we have to show something, but fyi, the same guy telling me to root this out, also has a son on Burisma, so take that as you will and lets do what is needed to get our aid'?

so, Trump is innocent

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Just now, ROMAD1 said:

so, Trump is innocent

That's what you seriously got out of that?  Swear to god some of you anti-trumpers have the same rose colored glasses you complain others of having.

I have stated since the transcript came out that Trump should be removed from office.  I have not wavered from that.  Above I did not say he was innocent, in fact I reiterated that what he did was not only unethical, but also illegal and the crux of the reason why the house voted to move forward in the impeachment process.

All I said in that, is if you believe everything is true with Trump, can you honestly look at the fact that Biden, who i'm not saying did anything illegal like Trump in his talks with Ukraine, but was putting pressure for an outcome.  Biden's outcome happened to be an outcome we all want and the world wanted as well, but still, pressure was being put on the Ukraine president to root out corruption.  So again the question, is it possible that the Ukraine president at the time with Biden got off of that call and said 'folks, we have do something about corruptions, but hey, fyi, Biden's son is on the board of Burisma, so ahh...take that as you will'?  That is where the ethical dilemma comes.  

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54 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

Impeachment can definitely be a political tool.  That doesn't make it wrong or bad either.  I don't want to see Trump impeached due to any of his body of work.  While folks can be upset about that, it's not impeachable to not be popular or be an ***.  Definitely want to see him gone, but more than willing to let the rule of law give us the opportunity to do it come next year.  

 

It's not just because he's an ***.  I believe he is mentally and emotionally unfit to be President.   I think it is likely that he has been involved in criminal behavior his entire life (even is wealth let's him get away with it) and is a threat to national security due to his ties with foreign countries.  I also do not believe he has the ability to put the country before his own agenda. 

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