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Directions and Objectives For A Future Mainstream Party

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Just now, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Aside from Pete's homosexuality, which probably does cost him votes with older voters across the board, he had relatively little interaction with the black political establishment, especially when compared to Biden.  Biden has a long history of appealing to, and working with, the black political establishment, and that was before he was Obama's Vice President.

That kind of political capital goes a long way and I rarely hear it mentioned.

oh no.  its because all black voters read about how racist he was in south bend.  it couldnt be because of lack of awareness about a candidate or anything...

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Just now, Buddha said:

oh no.  its because all black voters read about how racist he was in south bend.  it couldnt be because of lack of awareness about a candidate or anything...

Ask yourself this question honestly - if Pete has appallingly bad support from the black community in his own town, do you expect blacks from outside of his constituency to vote for him?

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10 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

A federal judge ruled that the police chief violated federal law. I can't help but think the tune would be different if a white chief of police violated federal law and illegally wiretapped black officers. 

And your complaint is that the black community didn't care that their advocate was going about his business in an unacceptable manner? Well welcome to America because about 55% of the whole damn population has the same complaint about the 40% of the White MAGA Trumper population.

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3 minutes ago, 313DetroitCity said:

Ask yourself this question honestly - if Pete has appallingly bad support from the black community in his own town, do you expect blacks from outside of his constituency to vote for him?

I think it depends.  It depends upon whether Pete can clearly *and credibly* articulate the things he did wrong and how he would handle it differently with the benefit of hindsight and hopefully better understanding / knowledge.

It is a difficult needle to thread, but I think it can be threaded.

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Just now, 313DetroitCity said:

Ask yourself this question honestly - if Pete has appallingly bad support from the black community in his own town, do you expect blacks from outside of his constituency to vote for him?

honestly, i think black voters arent aware of him until recently.  and i think black voters really like joe biden because of his association with barack obama amd because he has been around forever.

i think black voters historically tend to be a little more conservative and thats why candidates like bernie and warren and pete have not caught on with them as much.

i really dont think the south bend stuff has anything to do with it.

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1 minute ago, Gehringer_2 said:

And your complaint is that the black community didn't care that their advocate was going about his business in an unacceptable manner? Well welcome to America because about 55% of the whole damn population has the same complaint about the 40% of the White MAGA Trumper population.

I find it ironic you were lecturing about Clinton destroying the republic for not resigning when he was caught perjuring, and here we have a police chief, whose job is to uphold the law, violated the law and is expected to maintain his job because he was well liked. 

On a side note, I find it hypocritical the people in South Bend who want these illegal tapes released but then complain about Trumpers wanting Hillary's illegally obtained emails released.  

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Just now, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

I think it depends.  It depends upon whether Pete can clearly articulate the things he did wrong and how he would handle it differently with the benefit of hindsight and hopefully better understanding / knowledge.

It is a difficult needle to thread, but I think it can be threaded.

The difficulty is that once you get into the context of a campaign, almost any effort is immediately delegitimized as nothing more than election pandering - and probably for good reason.

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1 minute ago, 313DetroitCity said:

He has done a terrible job of this. He has consistently been awful at repairing this relationship, and is actually digging himself into deeper holes. 

Look at all of this awful messaging:

 

 

That woman is a model. That is what models are paid for. That is what a stock image is. 

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2 minutes ago, Buddha said:

honestly, i think black voters arent aware of him until recently.  and i think black voters really like joe biden because of his association with barack obama amd because he has been around forever.

i think black voters historically tend to be a little more conservative and thats why candidates like bernie and warren and pete have not caught on with them as much.

i really dont think the south bend stuff has anything to do with it.

Not so veiled "black people are reactionary and don't know stuff" comment. 

Those who are voting in the Democratic Primary and are black know about Pete Butigieg. They know these things, because the black people in South Bend are telling them these things:

Quote

Since Buttigieg became mayor in January 2012, taking charge of the South Bend Police Department, the city’s black residents have been far more likely to be arrested for marijuana offenses than its white residents. That disparity in South Bend under Buttigieg, in fact, is worse than in the rest of the country, or even the rest of Indiana.

Also, black folks who are highly sought after for endorsements are turning Pete away nonstop. Do you think that is because they don't know who he is? Even though they are very connected to local, state and national politics?

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Just now, Motown Bombers said:

I find it ironic you were lecturing about Clinton destroying the republic for not resigning when he was caught perjuring, and here we have a police chief, whose job is to uphold the law, violated the law and is expected to maintain his job because he was well liked. 

On a side note, I find it hypocritical the people in South Bend who want these illegal tapes released but then complain about Trumpers wanting Hillary's illegally obtained emails released.  

Oh - I don't have any sympathy for the chief, I'm just commenting that I think you were holding the black community to a standard that a heII of lot of the rest of America is missing pretty badly themselves. But heck, in the US today we are so immersed in hypocrisy on all sides anymore that there are almost too many targets to sort out! xD 

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1 minute ago, Motown Bombers said:

That woman is a model. That is what models are paid for. That is what a stock image is. 

Using a Kenyan woman to talk about African Americans. Yup, no bad imaging and communication there. Pete is on the right track.

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Circling back to some of the comments that enlivened this thread, I think that Biden appeals to a wider coalition of voters under the Democratic tent than the other front runners.

He is going to be difficult to beat, and frankly it may require him to beat himself with his famous gaffes to lose the nomination.

Sanders and Warren are more liberal than average democratic voter, and frankly their stances on single payer health care and forgiving student loans are not popular with *democratic* voters, let alone the general public.

That causes me pause, because I think ultimately you have to win the Presidency if you want any hope to gradually shift opinion over towards these more liberal policies, which is the most realistic way (in my mind at least) to enact them.

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1 minute ago, 313DetroitCity said:

Not so veiled "black people are reactionary and don't know stuff" comment. 

Those who are voting in the Democratic Primary and are black know about Pete Butigieg. They know these things, because the black people in South Bend are telling them these things:

Also, black folks who are highly sought after for endorsements are turning Pete away nonstop. Do you think that is because they don't know who he is? Even though they are very connected to local, state and national politics?

i think that black leaders are as strategic as any other leaders and will endorse the candidate they feel will do the most for them.  

and, just to be clear, are you saying i said something racist by saying black voters tend to be more conservative?

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12 minutes ago, 313DetroitCity said:

He has done a terrible job of this. He has consistently been awful at repairing this relationship, and is actually digging himself into deeper holes. 

Look at all of this awful messaging:

Whether he has is separate from the discussion of whether he could, which is what I thought your rhetorical question was getting at.

If I misunderstood that, apologies.

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6 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Whether he has or hasn't is separate from the discussion of whether he could, which is what I thought your rhetorical question was getting at.

another way to look at it is that if he continues to fumble his relations with the AA community it's an indication that a) he is not sufficiently sympatico himself to understand how his actions play 2) he has not made the effort or been insufficiently successful in any effort to bring effective AA relations advising to his campaign. To have reached this point in his national ambitions without accomplishing either of those things could be taken as an argument that indeed can not do it - or at least has a very low probability of doing it in the time remaining for this cycle.

 

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6 minutes ago, Buddha said:

i think that black leaders are as strategic as any other leaders and will endorse the candidate they feel will do the most for them.  

and, just to be clear, are you saying i said something racist by saying black voters tend to be more conservative?

It's DC. You said something racists years ago and he will find it for you.

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9 minutes ago, Buddha said:

i think that black leaders are as strategic as any other leaders and will endorse the candidate they feel will do the most for them.  

and, just to be clear, are you saying i said something racist by saying black voters tend to be more conservative?

So black leaders aren't homophobic, but the black voters are?

It isn't that complicated. Pete has had dog*** relations with black people in his own town, and continues to make bad impressions on black voters during this election cycle. He isn't going to turn it around, because black people won't believe his words when there is ample evidence from his past to show he isn't invested in the black community. 

Also, "black voters tend to be more conservative"? In what way?

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7 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

another way to look at it is that if he continues to fumble his relations with the AA community it's an indication that a) he is not sufficiently sympatico himself to understand how his actions play 2) he has not made the effort or been insufficiently successful in any effort to bring effective AA relations advising to his campaign. To have reached this point in his national ambitions without accomplishing either of those things could be taken as an argument that indeed can not do it.

Sure.  I have long pointed out the Pete (and Warren for that matter) need to **significantly** make inroads with AA voters or they have no chance to win the nomination.  It really is that simple.

I probably will be pilloried for this, but I do not see Sanders as a potential candidate.  He has his coalition, and they support him as firmly as any coalition does, but he hasn't grown that coalition in 5 years, and it isn't enough for a winning hand.

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1 minute ago, 313DetroitCity said:

So black leaders aren't homophobic, but the black voters are?

It isn't that complicated. Pete has had dog*** relations with black people in his own town, and continues to make bad impressions on black voters during this election cycle. He isn't going to turn it around, because black people won't believe his words when there is ample evidence from his past to show he isn't invested in the black community. 

Also, "black voters tend to be more conservative"? In what way?

Older black voters as a group tend to be more centrist than both black voters, and democratic voters, overall.  Polling data has shown that to be the case for quite some time (i.e. decades).

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1 minute ago, 313DetroitCity said:

So black leaders aren't homophobic, but the black voters are?

It isn't that complicated. Pete has had dog*** relations with black people in his own town, and continues to make bad impressions on black voters during this election cycle. He isn't going to turn it around, because black people won't believe his words when there is ample evidence from his past to show he isn't invested in the black community. 

Also, "black voters tend to be more conservative"? In what way?

clinton beat sanders among black voters 76% to 23%.  i think black voters have a long history of being more "middle of the road" in the democratic primaries when there isnt a prominent black candidate running.

and not to get into obama cause he's a special case, but he wasnt running on left wing economic policies either.

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1 minute ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Sure.  I have long pointed out the Pete (and Warren for that matter) need to significantly make inroads with AA voters or they have no chance to win the nomination.  It really is that simple.

I probably will be pilloried for this, but I do not see Sanders as a potential candidate.  He has his coalition, and they support him as firmly as any coalition does, but he hasn't grown that coalition in 5 years, and it isn't enough for a winning hand.

Better to be pilloried than Hillary'd. Sanders appeal was that he was the only alternative. He is no longer that alternative.

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Just now, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Older black voters as a group tend to be more centrist than both black voters, and democratic voters, overall.  Polling data has shown that to be the case for quite some time (i.e. decades).

oh, now youre racist too.

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