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Let the Dan Gilbert/Tigers speculation begin

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2 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

I put the Yankees and Cardinals as elite franchises other than that I'm not sure who else I would put.  I certainly wouldn't put the Indians, the past 11 seasons they only finished above .500 in half of them, that doesn't sound very elite to me. 

OK. Yankees and Cardinals. Works for me.

I would like the Tigers to become the kind of elite franchise that the Yankees and Cardinals are. That’s what I want from a new owner.

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11 hours ago, chasfh said:

OK. Yankees and Cardinals. Works for me.

I would like the Tigers to become the kind of elite franchise that the Yankees and Cardinals are. That’s what I want from a new owner.

Weren't you just talking about the Tigers throwing around money and now talk up the Yankees? For a decade or two the Yankees have been far and away the biggest spender in baseball. I would like a Steinbrenner owner as well who has unlimited money to throw around.

The Cardinals do spend as well. You criticized the Tigers for signing Cabrera to an extension but the Cardinals signed Pujols to a big extension. Where the Cardinals were smart was letting Pujols walk instead of giving a second big extension. The Cardinals also signed Matt Holiday to a big extension. They threw a lot of money to an aging Jhonny Peralta. 

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The Yankees are an elite franchise not just because they "throw money around" when it's time, but because they also know how to build their system with shrewd veterans-for-prospects trades when it's time. They may have down years here and there, and they may not always make the playoffs every year, but at the end of the day, they are in contention nearly every season and they don't go through long, protracted periods of going into the ****ter, with fingers crossed that they might come out the other side smelling like a rose for a brief period before going back down again. That's what I want for the Tigers, not just the throwing money around hoping it works part. That's my point, not whether this team or that team is elite or not.

Now that you understand what it is I've been trying to say, you'll forgive me for not getting into any more lawyerly deconstruction of what the meaning of "is" is.

 

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14 minutes ago, chasfh said:

The Yankees are an elite franchise not just because they "throw money around" when it's time, but because they also know how to build their system with shrewd veterans-for-prospects trades when it's time. They may have down years here and there, and they may not always make the playoffs every year, but at the end of the day, they are in contention nearly every season and they don't go through long, protracted periods of going into the ****ter, with fingers crossed that they might come out the other side smelling like a rose for a brief period before going back down again. That's what I want for the Tigers, not just the throwing money around hoping it works part. That's my point, not whether this team or that team is elite or not.

Now that you understand what it is I've been trying to say, you'll forgive me for not getting into any more lawyerly deconstruction of what the meaning of "is" is.

 

You must be the lone fan that would like the Tigers to be consistently competitive.

And some of us that are old to enough remember the Yankees when they weren't so great - from '65 - '75 they won 90+ games once.  And from '87-'95 they weren't much to write home about either.

 

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Cardinals never paid Pujols even $15m per year ..nor Carpenter (yet.)  And considering the awesome HOF stats that Pujols achieved during his Cardinal tenure ..the total $102.34m they paid him over his 10-year tenure was a bargain.

Carpenter has definitely earned his salary this year ..and he too may never earn $15m per year with them if they exercise their $2m buyout option for 2020.

Jhonny Peralta ..first & second seasons were very good for shortstop, ..but last two terrible.  Overall, probably not one of their better investments.

 

Overall, the Yankees have been a playoff contender basically every season for the past 26 seasons.  A disastrous season for the Yankees during the past 26 years was 84-78 (twice.)

Similarly, the Cardinals have been a playoff contender nearly every season since 2000 ..with only 1 losing season during the past 18 years at 78-84 in 2007.

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4 minutes ago, LooseGoose said:

You must be the lone fan that would like the Tigers to be consistently competitive.

I'd love for them to be competitive for the next 10 consecutive years ..but will consider it fortunate if they are competitive in only 4 of the 10 years.

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16 minutes ago, chasfh said:

The Yankees are an elite franchise not just because they "throw money around" when it's time, but because they also know how to build their system with shrewd veterans-for-prospects trades when it's time. They may have down years here and there, and they may not always make the playoffs every year, but at the end of the day, they are in contention nearly every season and they don't go through long, protracted periods of going into the ****ter, with fingers crossed that they might come out the other side smelling like a rose for a brief period before going back down again. That's what I want for the Tigers, not just the throwing money around hoping it works part. That's my point, not whether this team or that team is elite or not.

Now that you understand what it is I've been trying to say, you'll forgive me for not getting into any more lawyerly deconstruction of what the meaning of "is" is.

 

Yeah and my point is the Yankees threw money at Sabathia, Ellsbury, and A-Rod and could afford to keep them as nothing more than bench players. They were able to trade and take on the Stanton contract (yet you criticized the Tigers for trading for Cabrera and locking him long term). They were able to acquire a high paid closer who they knew was going to miss significant time. They were able to pay an 8th inning set up man $36 million. They will be able to pay Bryce Harper whatever he wants. Despite all this, this elite franchise with unlimited money lost all three times they played the Tigers in the playoffs. 

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5 minutes ago, Tigrrfan said:

Cardinals never paid Pujols even $15m per year ..nor Carpenter (yet.)  And considering the awesome HOF stats that Pujols achieved during his Cardinal tenure ..the total $102.34m they paid him over his 10-year tenure was a bargain.

Carpenter has definitely earned his salary this year ..and he too may never earn $15m per year with them if they exercise their $2m buyout option for 2020.

Jhonny Peralta ..first & second seasons were very good for shortstop, ..but last two terrible.  Overall, probably not one of their better investments.

 

Overall, the Yankees have been a playoff contender basically every season for the past 26 seasons.  A disastrous season for the Yankees during the past 26 years was 84-78 (twice.)

Similarly, the Cardinals have been a playoff contender nearly every season since 2000 ..with only 1 losing season during the past 18 years at 78-84 in 2007.

The Cardinals signed Pujols to a 7 year 100 million deal in 2004. Breaks down to a little over $14 million per which was a lot more back then. 

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6 minutes ago, LooseGoose said:

And some of us that are old to enough remember the Yankees when they weren't so great - from '65 - '75 they won 90+ games once.  And from '87-'95 they weren't much to write home about either.

Yankees during 1965 thru 1975 had 5 seasons under .500 and 6 seasons above .500.  Overall ..a plus .500 team during that 11-year stretch at 888-881 overall.

Yankees during 1987 thru 1995 had 4 seasons under .500 and 5 seasons above .500.  Overall ..a plus .500 team during that 9-year stretch at 699-690 overall.

Those are, ..by far, ..the 2 worst stretches of so-called futility for the Yankees in the past 100 years.

 

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15 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

The Cardinals signed Pujols to a 7 year 100 million deal in 2004. Breaks down to a little over $14 million per which was a lot more back then. 

It may have been a lot more back then ..but was it not still a bargain considering his extraordinary productivity?

Especially considering that in 2004, his salary was not even in the top 25 highest annual salaries that year ..nor was it top 25 in 2005, ..was 'only' 18th highest in 2006, ..then again not in top 25 highest annual salary during 2007, 2008, 2010, and even in his final Cardinal year 2011.  Indeed, only 1 time during his Cardinal tenure was Albert's salary in the top 25 in all baseball.

 

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2 minutes ago, Tigrrfan said:

True, it was a lot more back then.  But was it not still a bargain considering his extraordinary productivity?

It was a bargain. I would also say Cabrera's 8 year $153 million deal was a bargain as well considering his productivity and signing it 4 years later. The Cardinals were smart by letting Pujols walk after that deal. In both of those deals, neither Cabrera or Pujols had leverage. Had they been free agents, they would have gotten more. It was smart moves by both teams to lock up their young stars. 

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8 minutes ago, Tigrrfan said:

Yankees during 1965 thru 1975 had 5 seasons under .500 and 6 seasons above .500.  Overall ..a plus .500 team during that 11-year stretch at 888-881 overall.

Yankees during 1987 thru 1995 had 4 seasons under .500 and 5 seasons above .500.  Overall ..a plus .500 team during that 9-year stretch at 699-690 overall.

Those are, ..by far, ..the 2 worst stretches of so-called futility for the Yankees in the past 100 years.

 

Thank you for compiling that.    16 net games over .500 in 20 years fits my description of "not great" pretty closely.    My overall point was that no franchise is always competitive.

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2 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

Yeah and my point is the Yankees threw money at Sabathia, Ellsbury, and A-Rod and could afford to keep them as nothing more than bench players. They were able to trade and take on the Stanton contract (yet you criticized the Tigers for trading for Cabrera and locking him long term). They were able to acquire a high paid closer who they knew was going to miss significant time. They were able to pay an 8th inning set up man $36 million. They will be able to pay Bryce Harper whatever he wants. Despite all this, this elite franchise with unlimited money lost all three times they played the Tigers in the playoffs. 

That's fine, you can believe that there is no such thing as an elite franchise, if that's your position. We can agree to disagree on that.

But you would be wrong. :grin: :laugh: 

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Seems to me even when the Indians were bad recently they had a good crop of young players.  I think that’s what Chas was getting at.  I agree. 

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3 hours ago, LooseGoose said:

You must be the lone fan that would like the Tigers to be consistently competitive.

And some of us that are old to enough remember the Yankees when they weren't so great - from '65 - '75 they won 90+ games once.  And from '87-'95 they weren't much to write home about either.

 

Not everybody cares whether the Tigers can become the kind of elite franchise I've described. Some people are perfectly fine with the Ilitch family and Avila regime carrying on. You may be one, still, and that's OK, that's your right. I want a chance at something different.

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47 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Not everybody cares whether the Tigers can become the kind of elite franchise I've described. Some people are perfectly fine with the Ilitch family and Avila regime carrying on. You may be one, still, and that's OK, that's your right. I want a chance at something different.

lol.   I guess.    I can only guess at the impact your discontent is having on decisions to buy or sell sports franchises in Detroit market.

 

A simpler solution might be to identify the front office/ownership group you most admire - and root for their team.

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Chas DH is one of the select few that wants their team to be perfectly run. 

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18 hours ago, LooseGoose said:

lol.   I guess.    I can only guess at the impact your discontent is having on decisions to buy or sell sports franchises in Detroit market.

 

A simpler solution might be to identify the front office/ownership group you most admire - and root for their team.

So ... dream small? Don’t bother dreaming at all?  Embrace the current situation or get lost? Am I close?

 

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No team that hasn't won a championship since the Truman administration is elite. The Indians are pretty much like the Tigers. Five playoff appearances in the mid to late 90's, two World Series appearances, no championships. In 97 they won the division with 86 wins. If dreaming big is the Cleveland Indians, I'm going to have nightmares. 

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1 hour ago, chasfh said:

We’re way past the Indians, bro.

Sorry, still loling at the thought of Cleveland being an elite franchise and aspiring to be them. 

If we're talking about the Yankees, I'm all for finding an owner who has an unlimited supply of money to invest in the team. 

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Ye gods, Lei, that's perfectly awful. By which I mean, awful in the most perfect way.

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2 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Sorry, still loling at the thought of Cleveland being an elite franchise and aspiring to be them. 

If we're talking about the Yankees, I'm all for finding an owner who has an unlimited supply of money to invest in the team. 

We just had one of those, and yet, here we are.

I'd like more from the next owner which, grid willing, will be sooner than later.

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1 minute ago, chasfh said:

We just had one of those, and yet, here we are.

I'd like more from the next owner which, grid willing, will be sooner than later.

Not like the Yankees. Steinbrenner would have re-signed Scherzer and Price. In 2012 the Yankees payroll was about $65 million more than the Tigers. The Tigers swept the Yankees in the playoffs. 

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