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Let the Dan Gilbert/Tigers speculation begin

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32 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

I'm not willing to write off Cabrera until I see what he looks like in Spring training.

Then I will write him off.

He'll be in the best shape of his life.

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On 9/6/2018 at 11:14 AM, Yoda said:

Question for those more familiar with Gilbert... is he a guy that will come in and throw around a bunch of money? Or is a guy who will come in and want to rebuild things, top to bottom, with a more progressive mind? Because I'd rather have that. 

The best owners know when to do which.

I wouldn’t want an Ilitch redux because he was most interested in winning a championship before he died than in building a franchise sustainable for the long term. I mean, we got division titles out of it and a couple of World Series, but his was a short term strategy destined to leave the system barren as it is now (and it is until proven otherwise). I sympathize with Ilitch’s desire, but that doesn’t mean I would want that for my team a second time.

I’d like a new owner who can build like the Cubs when it’s time for that, spend like the Yankees when it’s time for that, and understand when it’s time for each. Yes, I realize that’s the perfect scenario. I want the perfect scenario.

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6 minutes ago, chasfh said:

The best owners know when to do which.

I wouldn’t want an Ilitch redux because he was most interested in winning a championship before he died than in building a franchise sustainable for the long term. I mean, we got division titles out of it and a couple of World Series, but his was a short term strategy destined to leave the system barren as it is now (and it is until proven otherwise). I sympathize with Ilitch’s desire, but that doesn’t mean I would want that for my team a second time.

I’d like a new owner who can build like the Cubs when it’s time for that, spend like the Yankees when it’s time for that, and understand when it’s time for each. Yes, I realize that’s the perfect scenario. I want the perfect scenario.

The Tigers had a decade-long stretch of contention. That's about as long as it gets. It was never going to last forever, but they proved you can succeed long-term just by throwing around money, for the most part. 

I just don't find that method as enjoyable as mostly building from within. I don't know that one way is better than the other. 

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On 9/11/2018 at 10:10 PM, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

The team alledgedly loses money every year but reportedly always increases in value.

My spidey-sense is tingling.

FTFY 

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39 minutes ago, Yoda said:

The Tigers had a decade-long stretch of contention. That's about as long as it gets. It was never going to last forever, but they proved you can succeed long-term just by throwing around money, for the most part. 

I just don't find that method as enjoyable as mostly building from within. I don't know that one way is better than the other. 

They did, that’s good, and I’m glad we had that stretch.

That said, despite two World Series and four divisions, we never had the best record in the league, or even the second best record in the league, for any of those seasons, and for that second Series, we actually had the seventh best record in the league, worse than two third-place teams. The Tigers during that period were a stars-and-scrubs franchise that was blessed by playing in a consistently bad division (all four of the division winners had the worst record of any AL division winner) and also got hot at the right time a couple of years. To your point, we were always contending and we made a lot of playoffs, and that was fun while it was happening and I enjoyed as much as anyone else, but we also did it with a blunt force strategy that both requires a fair bit of luck and was not sustainable.

And now we’re going to pay for that by wandering through the desert for what looks to be a long stretch of time. Don’t a lot of teams go through desert wandering stretches? Sure. Is every franchise destined to go through that no matter what they do? I don’t think so. The Yankees don’t. The Cardinals don’t. The Dodgers don’t. The Indians don’t. These are elite franchises with smart owners who hire smart people who employ smart strategies to build and win. They are our sport’s current elite franchises. I’d like the Tigers to become this kind of elite franchise. That’s what I want from a new owner.

Dream big. 

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....and big dreams describes this thread well.

All based on Gilbert selling a couple of casinos and in the face of the Illitch family stating they're in for the long haul.

In light of the CTE issues owning a baseball franchise has got to look pretty safe right now vs the NFL or NHL.

 

 

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If I wanted to get top dollar for my valuable big league franchise, I’d say I’m holding it for the long haul, too.

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9 minutes ago, chasfh said:

If I wanted to get top dollar for my valuable big league franchise, I’d say I’m holding it for the long haul, too.

Yes, that negotiating ploy has been mentioned previously in this thread.   I'll bet neither the Illitch family nor Gilbert had thought of it until they saw it here on MTS.   Rather than read tea leaves I'll take them at their word and choose to believe that they have no burning desire to dispose of their Dad's legacy.   It's not as if they need the cash, on the other hand with all the projects he has underway Mr. Gilbert might need some cash.   I think it's as simple as that.

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It's not crazy speculation.  It's natural.  The Tigers were a team owned by Mike Ilitch.  He died.  Now it's in some kind of trust.  Dan Gilbert sells assets that MLB restricts owners form having.  He already owns on sports franchise.   Both parties are heavily involved in what's going on in downtown Detroit.  Speculating on interest in buying/selling is not out of the ordinary.  They are natural questions.

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13 minutes ago, LooseGoose said:

Yes, that negotiating ploy has been mentioned previously in this thread.   I'll bet neither the Illitch family nor Gilbert had thought of it until they saw it here on MTS.   Rather than read tea leaves I'll take them at their word and choose to believe that they have no burning desire to dispose of their Dad's legacy.   It's not as if they need the cash, on the other hand with all the projects he has underway Mr. Gilbert might need some cash.   I think it's as simple as that.

OK.

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44 minutes ago, chasfh said:

They did, that’s good, and I’m glad we had that stretch.

That said, despite two World Series and four divisions, we never had the best record in the league, or even the second best record in the league, for any of those seasons, and for that second Series, we actually had the seventh best record in the league, worse than two third-place teams. The Tigers during that period were a stars-and-scrubs franchise that was blessed by playing in a consistently bad division (all four of the division winners had the worst record of any AL division winner) and also got hot at the right time a couple of years. To your point, we were always contending and we made a lot of playoffs, and that was fun while it was happening and I enjoyed as much as anyone else, but we also did it with a blunt force strategy that both requires a fair bit of luck and was not sustainable.

And now we’re going to pay for that by wandering through the desert for what looks to be a long stretch of time. Don’t a lot of teams go through desert wandering stretches? Sure. Is every franchise destined to go through that no matter what they do? I don’t think so. The Yankees don’t. The Cardinals don’t. The Dodgers don’t. The Indians don’t. These are elite franchises with smart owners who hire smart people who employ smart strategies to build and win. They are our sport’s current elite franchises. I’d like the Tigers to become this kind of elite franchise. That’s what I want from a new owner.

Dream big. 

The Indians haven't won a World Series since 1948. The Indians after their run ended in 2001 made the playoffs only two times in 15 seasons, one of which being a one and done wild card loss. Seriously, the Indians an elite franchise? No other team in baseball has a longer championship drought. 

The Tigers didn't just buy a team. Verlander was a homegrown talent. Cabrera was only 24 when they traded for him. He was literally at the tail end of prospect age. His best years were still ahead of him. Regardless whether they traded for him or drafted him, they would have needed to sign him to a big contract. Granderson was a homegrown talent who was flipped for Scherzer and Jackson. They signed a lot of high priced free agents but the core of that team was young and essentially developed within. 

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On 9/6/2018 at 12:14 PM, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

I hear John Schnatter is available.

And he could buy Jimmy John's Field in Utica and change it to Papa John's Field and move the team there.  Anywhere but Comerica would be an improvement.  The concession-stand pizza would be better, too.

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If only we could act like the cubs to build a sustainable franchise. We could trade away an eloy and cease type for a good but not great pitcher. Or we could trade gleybor Torres and others for a couple months of Chapman. May as well trade our last good prospects to the tigers for Justin Wilson and Alex Avila. Why not?

We absolutely shouldn’t use our vast financial advantage to trade for a better pitcher like verlander even though he costs more. We should let the best team in baseball do it instead so we can get the better writeup on fangraphs. 

If not the cubs, maybe we can be the brilliant Indians? Let’s build a sustainable team that has the fifth best record in the AL all while playing in possibly the worst division in AL history.

 

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3 hours ago, chasfh said:

They did, that’s good, and I’m glad we had that stretch.

That said, despite two World Series and four divisions, we never had the best record in the league, or even the second best record in the league, for any of those seasons, and for that second Series, we actually had the seventh best record in the league, worse than two third-place teams. The Tigers during that period were a stars-and-scrubs franchise that was blessed by playing in a consistently bad division (all four of the division winners had the worst record of any AL division winner) and also got hot at the right time a couple of years. To your point, we were always contending and we made a lot of playoffs, and that was fun while it was happening and I enjoyed as much as anyone else, but we also did it with a blunt force strategy that both requires a fair bit of luck and was not sustainable.

And now we’re going to pay for that by wandering through the desert for what looks to be a long stretch of time. Don’t a lot of teams go through desert wandering stretches? Sure. Is every franchise destined to go through that no matter what they do? I don’t think so. The Yankees don’t. The Cardinals don’t. The Dodgers don’t. The Indians don’t. These are elite franchises with smart owners who hire smart people who employ smart strategies to build and win. They are our sport’s current elite franchises. I’d like the Tigers to become this kind of elite franchise. That’s what I want from a new owner.

Dream big. 

Look at the Yankees for a 10 year run starting in 1982,

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/index.shtml

St Louis from 1969-1980, 1988-95

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/index.shtml

Dodgers 1989-2003

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/LAD/index.shtml

Look at Cleveland from the mid 50 to the mid 90s

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CLE/index.shtml

All teams go thru stretches where the fans think the front off is full of morons and ownership sucks. 

It is just that the team you root for seems to be the only one.

I should know, I’ve followed the Pirates since 1960😀

 

 

 

 

 

 

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21 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

The Indians haven't won a World Series since 1948. The Indians after their run ended in 2001 made the playoffs only two times in 15 seasons, one of which being a one and done wild card loss. Seriously, the Indians an elite franchise? No other team in baseball has a longer championship drought. 

The Tigers didn't just buy a team. Verlander was a homegrown talent. Cabrera was only 24 when they traded for him. He was literally at the tail end of prospect age. His best years were still ahead of him. Regardless whether they traded for him or drafted him, they would have needed to sign him to a big contract. Granderson was a homegrown talent who was flipped for Scherzer and Jackson. They signed a lot of high priced free agents but the core of that team was young and essentially developed within. 

If championships were the sole determinant, the Royals would be an elite franchise since they won in 2015, having gone to their second straight WS. I'm talking about competing year after year, which the Indians do without having to go through multiple season retrenchments like common franchises do. And I think you'd have to admit that the Tigers embodied the epitome of throwing money at veterans trying to buy a championship, including re-upping Cabrera twice, even if they had one, single, big piece throughout that period that was homegrown.

I think I take your point, though. Calling the current Indians an elite franchise even though they haven't won a ring in seven decades is, I guess, akin to calling the 2006-14 Tigers a dynasty, even though they not only never won a ring during that period, they didn't even have the best record in the league during that nine-year stretch. Or even the second-best record in the league during that stretch, for that matter. So, to your point, it's debatable.

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19 hours ago, CMRivdog said:

Look at the Yankees for a 10 year run starting in 1982,

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/index.shtml

St Louis from 1969-1980, 1988-95

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/index.shtml

Dodgers 1989-2003

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/LAD/index.shtml

Look at Cleveland from the mid 50 to the mid 90s

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CLE/index.shtml

All teams go thru stretches where the fans think the front off is full of morons and ownership sucks. 

It is just that the team you root for seems to be the only one.

I should know, I’ve followed the Pirates since 1960😀

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm talking about recently, not throughout the complete 118-year history of modern baseball to which, using that standard, there's no such thing as an elite franchise.

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1 hour ago, chasfh said:

If championships were the sole determinant, the Royals would be an elite franchise since they won in 2015, having gone to their second straight WS. I'm talking about competing year after year, which the Indians do without having to go through multiple season retrenchments like common franchises do. And I think you'd have to admit that the Tigers embodied the epitome of throwing money at veterans trying to buy a championship, including re-upping Cabrera twice, even if they had one, single, big piece throughout that period that was homegrown.

I think I take your point, though. Calling the current Indians an elite franchise even though they haven't won a ring in seven decades is, I guess, akin to calling the 2006-14 Tigers a dynasty, even though they not only never won a ring during that period, they didn't even have the best record in the league during that nine-year stretch. Or even the second-best record in the league during that stretch, for that matter. So, to your point, it's debatable.

Seriously? From 2002 through 2015 they made the playoff twice in 14 seasons. One of those was a one game wild card playoff they lost. From 1995 through 2001, they made the playoffs 5 times winning a weak AL Central. They won the division twice with less than 90 wins. Prior to 1995, they went 41 years without making the playoffs. They were literally cursed by the Tigers. 

All good team spend. You mentioned the Yankees as an elite franchise who are the epitome of throwing around money. The Dodgers throw around a lot of money and have straight division titles and no championship. The Red Sox throw around a lot of money. The Cardinals do as well bit they are smarter about it and no when to walk away. Were the Tigers suppose to let Cabrera walk at 26? 

BTW, who's claiming the 2006-14 Tigers are a dynasty? They pretty much seem like the 90's Indians. Winning a sometimes weak division and losing two World Series. 

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1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said:

Seriously? From 2002 through 2015 they made the playoff twice in 14 seasons. One of those was a one game wild card playoff they lost. From 1995 through 2001, they made the playoffs 5 times winning a weak AL Central. They won the division twice with less than 90 wins. Prior to 1995, they went 41 years without making the playoffs. They were literally cursed by the Tigers. 

All good team spend. You mentioned the Yankees as an elite franchise who are the epitome of throwing around money. The Dodgers throw around a lot of money and have straight division titles and no championship. The Red Sox throw around a lot of money. The Cardinals do as well bit they are smarter about it and no when to walk away. Were the Tigers suppose to let Cabrera walk at 26? 

BTW, who's claiming the 2006-14 Tigers are a dynasty? They pretty much seem like the 90's Indians. Winning a sometimes weak division and losing two World Series. 

Tell me who you believe the elite teams in big league baseball are, today. 

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2 hours ago, chasfh said:

Tell me who you believe the elite teams in big league baseball are, today. 

The Tigers ..before, now, and forevermore.

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I put the Yankees and Cardinals as elite franchises other than that I'm not sure who else I would put.  I certainly wouldn't put the Indians, the past 11 seasons they only finished above .500 in half of them, that doesn't sound very elite to me. 

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