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Tenacious D

Can Motown Sports survive the rebuild?

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Just now, Gehringer_2 said:

HaHa - If they had had any foresight they should have asked JL how long he intended to stick around each year and when he said 'One Year' going into 2013, given him a long vacation and hired Francona while he was still available.

But of course Tito was damaged good coming out of that Boston situation. Time seems to have proven it was more that particular batch of players than Francona.

Lol.  As bad as this may make you feel....   I was about to post that the real mistake was not ditching JL a year earlier and hiring Tito.    

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8 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

HaHa - If they had had any foresight they should have asked JL how long he intended to stick around each year and when he said 'One Year' going into 2013, given him a long vacation and hired Francona while he was still available.

But of course Tito was damaged good coming out of that Boston situation. Time seems to have proven it was more that particular batch of players than Francona.

Don't torture me.  Terry Francona managing the Tigers from 2013 and on.  Sigh.

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8 hours ago, Tigrrfan said:

 

Unfortunately, the 'return' for trading away JD and JV netted only low to mid level prospects ..at best.  

Multiple scouts including Keith Law, Jim Callis and Kiley Daniels have said that Alcantara is a future starting SS.   Prospectus, BA and Law rate Jake Rogers as a top 10 catching prospect.   Daz Cameron is our 3-4 rated prospect and in most people's top 100 and Franklyn Perez is in virtually every scouts top 50.  But yeah those guys are all "mid level" prospects at best.   Atleast try to disguise the fact that you are a total pessimist. 

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14 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

don't mention that. I have wall in the rec-room that needs a final coat of mud and sanding.

Can't help you there.  I'm too busy trying to provoke arguments.

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9 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

But yeah those guys are all "mid level" prospects at best.   Atleast try to disguise the fact that you are a total pessimist. 

Simple semantics .. you say 'pessimist' ..I say 'realist'.  

Realistically, a 'mid-level' prospect could eventually become a mid-level MLB player.

Keith Law says a lot of things ..then flip-flops a lot of times ..and basically ..why would anyone put any serious value upon the opinion of a man who says a prospect "just doesn't have it" and then later suggests the same player "could become a starter?"

Jim Callis ..not sure where you got his own personal ranking of Sergio Alcantara ..but a google search Jim Callis' name provided the MLB top 30 for each team ..and on that site ..Alcantara is listed as only the 19th best current Tiger prospect.

As for Kiley Daniels ..I have never heard of Kiley Daniels ..and a quick google search of his name brings up nothing.  Maybe you meant to write Kiley "McDaniels" ..and if you did ..then FanGraphs is probably 'his' place ..and they do not list Alcantara among their June 11 top 130 prospects ..and in fact, they list Alcantara only the 27th best "Shortstop" prospect in all MLB. 

Jim Sickels at "sbnation" listed Sergio Alcantara as the Tigers 18th best prospect.

One writer at BYB listed Alcantara as the Tigers 22nd best prospect.

Glaringly ..the Tigers themselves rank Alcantara as only their 14th best prospect ..well below Tiger shortstop prospect Isaac Paredes.

I have far more confidence in recently acquired Will Castro to become the Tiger shortstop of the future ..or perhaps Isaac Paredes (although Castro is my current first choice.)

In summary regarding Sergio Alcantara ..the most oft-used expression on all the 'prospect' sites is that he is likely going to be a utility infielder with an above average glove at shortstop.  In my opinion, ..current Tiger shortstop Jose Iglesais is better now than Alcantara will ever be even at his own peak.

........

I have no problem with Daz Cameron ..he' could become a Chet Lemon type centerfielder ..which overall, was basically a mid-level baseball player.  Seriously, while a very good mid-level player ..Chet Lemon was never a bona-fide league-wide MLB superstar.  Players of the past similar to Chet Lemon include Johnny Callison, Bobby Murcer, Jeff Conine, Amos Otis, Felipe Alou, and Gary Matthews.  Very good players ..but certainly not the players a team would build their franchise around.  btw:  These are the most optimistic very best one could reasonable expect of Daz Cameron's future at this time.  I'd certainly be happy if he made it true.

.......

I believe Franklin Perez has potential to be a #3 or #4 starter on a World Champion team .. certainly not #1 or #2.  Tigers already have at least 5 better Starting Pitching prospects who should eventually overtake him if the Tigers ever become a serious World Championship contender between now and 2025.  Best prospective value that I see for Franklin is perhaps future trade bait to fill a different Tiger need before he eventually becomes a FA.

......

Whatever.  People will not remember these discussions when the Tigers are competitive again .. likely not until after 2023 or later.  It makes no difference to me if some folks are overly optimistic about Alcantara, Rogers, Cameron, and Perez as future MLB'ers.  I think Cameron probably will be a future starting Centerfielder ..but again, ..probably not going to set the baseball world on its ears ..more likely a 'star' on a mediocre team much like I already mentioned about Travis Fryman or Bobby Higginson.  Yes, very good players when at their best ..but need a whole lot more supporting cast to be considered serious World Championship caliber players.

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I loved Amos Otis and hated that he was a Royal.   Also was very fond of Felipe Alou, he was my favorite of the Alou brothers.

Just for me - please don't make a habit of speaking ill of Chester.

 

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Chester was a very good baseball player .. a three-time All Star during his career.  

I loved the player.  I only hope Daz Cameron can become as good a player as Chet was.

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I liked all those playes ..Johnny Callison, Bobby Murcer, Jeff Conine, Amos Otis, Felipe Alou, and Gary Matthews ..and too bad the Tigers do not have enough current depth in their farm system to bring up six similar players (or even just 3) over the next 3 to 5 years.  Because THAT would truly be something to look forward to.

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16 minutes ago, LooseGoose said:

I loved Amos Otis and hated that he was a Royal.   Also was very fond of Felipe Alou, he was my favorite of the Alou brothers.

Just for me - please don't make a habit of speaking ill of Chester.

 

Otis, Alou and Lemon where favorites of mine as well.  I have always been a favorite of very good but somewhat underappreciated players.  

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Want to be reminded about a great Tiger farm system?

The 1976 Detroit Tigers saw the major league debut of Mark Fidrych and Jason Thompson.

The 1977 Detroit Tigers saw the major league debut of Tim Cocoran, Steve Kemp, Jack Morris, Lance Parrish, Dave Rozema, Alan Trammell, and Lou Whitaker.

The 1979 Detroit Tigers saw the major league debut of Tom Brookens, Kirk Gibson, and Dan Petry.

The 1982 Detroit Tigers saw the major league debut of Howard Johnson and Glenn Wilson.

 

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3 hours ago, Tigrrfan said:

Simple semantics .. you say 'pessimist' ..I say 'realist'.  

Realistically, a 'mid-level' prospect could eventually become a mid-level MLB player.

Keith Law says a lot of things ..then flip-flops a lot of times ..and basically ..why would anyone put any serious value upon the opinion of a man who says a prospect "just doesn't have it" and then later suggests the same player "could become a starter?"

Jim Callis ..not sure where you got his own personal ranking of Sergio Alcantara ..but a google search Jim Callis' name provided the MLB top 30 for each team ..and on that site ..Alcantara is listed as only the 19th best current Tiger prospect.

As for Kiley Daniels ..I have never heard of Kiley Daniels ..and a quick google search of his name brings up nothing.  Maybe you meant to write Kiley "McDaniels" ..and if you did ..then FanGraphs is probably 'his' place ..and they do not list Alcantara among their June 11 top 130 prospects ..and in fact, they list Alcantara only the 27th best "Shortstop" prospect in all MLB. 

Jim Sickels at "sbnation" listed Sergio Alcantara as the Tigers 18th best prospect.

One writer at BYB listed Alcantara as the Tigers 22nd best prospect.

Glaringly ..the Tigers themselves rank Alcantara as only their 14th best prospect ..well below Tiger shortstop prospect Isaac Paredes.

I have far more confidence in recently acquired Will Castro to become the Tiger shortstop of the future ..or perhaps Isaac Paredes (although Castro is my current first choice.)

In summary regarding Sergio Alcantara ..the most oft-used expression on all the 'prospect' sites is that he is likely going to be a utility infielder with an above average glove at shortstop.  In my opinion, ..current Tiger shortstop Jose Iglesais is better now than Alcantara will ever be even at his own peak.

........

I have no problem with Daz Cameron ..he' could become a Chet Lemon type centerfielder ..which overall, was basically a mid-level baseball player.  Seriously, while a very good mid-level player ..Chet Lemon was never a bona-fide league-wide MLB superstar.  Players of the past similar to Chet Lemon include Johnny Callison, Bobby Murcer, Jeff Conine, Amos Otis, Felipe Alou, and Gary Matthews.  Very good players ..but certainly not the players a team would build their franchise around.  btw:  These are the most optimistic very best one could reasonable expect of Daz Cameron's future at this time.  I'd certainly be happy if he made it true.

.......

I believe Franklin Perez has potential to be a #3 or #4 starter on a World Champion team .. certainly not #1 or #2.  Tigers already have at least 5 better Starting Pitching prospects who should eventually overtake him if the Tigers ever become a serious World Championship contender between now and 2025.  Best prospective value that I see for Franklin is perhaps future trade bait to fill a different Tiger need before he eventually becomes a FA.

......

Whatever.  People will not remember these discussions when the Tigers are competitive again .. likely not until after 2023 or later.  It makes no difference to me if some folks are overly optimistic about Alcantara, Rogers, Cameron, and Perez as future MLB'ers.  I think Cameron probably will be a future starting Centerfielder ..but again, ..probably not going to set the baseball world on its ears ..more likely a 'star' on a mediocre team much like I already mentioned about Travis Fryman or Bobby Higginson.  Yes, very good players when at their best ..but need a whole lot more supporting cast to be considered serious World Championship caliber players.

Wow, your standards for "mid-level" are very tough.  Chet Lemon had a 16-year career and played almost 2000 games, with good offensive and defensive numbers, resulting in a 55.6 WAR and an OPS+ of 121.  The one area in which he was below average was his baserunning,  which was WAY below average -- I think that he was the worst baserunner I've ever seen in the Majors.  But overall, I think -- and the stats say -- that he was a very good player.

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A team of Chet 🍋 caliber players up and down the line-up would be a favorite to win the division with average or better pitching.

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23 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

A team of Chet 🍋 caliber players up and down the line-up would be a favorite to win the division with average or better pitching.

The JAWS rankings ( under the Jaffe WAR Score system) have Lemon 20th among all--time center fielders.  Eight of the 19 center fielders in the Hall of Fame are below him, some of them far below.

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2 hours ago, Tigrrfan said:

I believe Franklin Perez has potential to be a #3 or #4 starter on a World Champion team .. certainly not #1 or #2.  Tigers already have at least 5 better Starting Pitching prospects who should eventually overtake him if the Tigers ever become a serious World Championship contender between now and 2025.  Best prospective value that I see for Franklin is perhaps future trade bait to fill a different Tiger need before he eventually becomes a FA.

Which 5 pitching prospects do the Tigers currently have above Perez?

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51 minutes ago, six-hopper said:

The JAWS rankings ( under the Jaffe WAR Score system) have Lemon 20th among all--time center fielders.  Eight of the 19 center fielders in the Hall of Fame are below him, some of them far below.

This answer is not complete without telling us where Amos is.   I'm guessing well below Chester but well above average.

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14 minutes ago, six-hopper said:

Otis is 42nd in the center fielder JAWS rankings.

Thanks!   So a pretty darned good career.

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5 hours ago, six-hopper said:

But overall, I think -- and the stats say -- that he was a very good player.

Yes, overall, I think I did, in facrt, say Chet was a very good player.  I also said Daz might someday be as good a player as Chet ..but the point of it all is that that remains to be seen.

Daz should make the Tiger roster sometime next year.  Not sure what month ..but am thinking more later than sooner next year.

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4 hours ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

A team of Chet 🍋 caliber players up and down the line-up would be a favorite to win the division with average or better pitching.

I agree that a team full of Chet Lemon caliber players up and down their lineup with average or better pitching would be expected to win the Al Central.  But that's talking the AL Central. 

What that means is that it is going to take a whole lot of Daz Camerons to beat out AL teams like the Yankees and Astros for the AL pennant before at least year 2023.

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7 minutes ago, Tigrrfan said:

I agree that a team full of Chet Lemon caliber players up and down their lineup with average or better pitching would be expected to win the Al Central.  But that's talking the AL Central. 

What that means is that it is going to take a whole lot of Daz Camerons to beat out AL teams like the Yankees and Astros for the AL pennant before at least year 2023.

We 're doomed since they'll be trying to improve too.  

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The SF giants in 2010, 2012, and 2014 had a team of Chet Lemons in the lineup. 

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4 hours ago, TigerNation said:

Which 5 pitching prospects do the Tigers currently have above Perez?

 

7 hours ago, Tigrrfan said:

I believe Franklin Perez has potential to be a #3 or #4 starter on a World Champion team .. certainly not #1 or #2.  Tigers already have at least 5 better Starting Pitching prospects who should eventually overtake him if the Tigers ever become a serious World Championship contender between now and 2025.  Best prospective value that I see for Franklin is perhaps future trade bait to fill a different Tiger need before he eventually becomes a FA.

I think you misinterpreted my comment ..and focused only upon the number 5 instead of reading the entire opinion.

Perhaps that's my own fault because of the way I explained it.  I also should have said only "4" Starting Pitching prospects instead of "5" ..although someone could probably make a decent case for a 5th in Funkhouser or Soto (the nod would still go to Perez) if that was the main point (which it wasn't.)

And perhaps I should have primarily emphasized the "4" Starting Pitching prospects who should/will eventually overtake him [Perez] in the next 1 to 3 years ..including Casey Mize, Matt Manning, Alex Faedo, and Beau Burrows ..all of whom project to be capable of becoming a front-line starter.  

 

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58 minutes ago, LooseGoose said:

We 're doomed since they'll be trying to improve too.  

I mentioned Yankees and Astros because as strong as their MLB lineups already are ..they also have farm systems ranked in the top of MLB ..although the Yankees farm system dropped a bit with the promotions of Gleyber Torres and Miguel Andujar to the MLB level (both of whom are leading candidates for 2018 AL Rookie of the Year.)

Currently, according to Bleacher Reports as of August 1st ..the Astros currently have the 5th best farm system in MLB ..with the White Sox 6th, Twins 8th ..and Yankees 14th.  Tigers are currently 10th in their rankings.

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49 minutes ago, Oblong said:

The SF giants in 2010, 2012, and 2014 had a team of Chet Lemons in the lineup. 

The also had above average pitching (starting and/or bullpen) ..above average manager in Bruce Bochy ..and probable future HOF'er Buster Posey.

They also won the 2012 WS at the expense of the Detroit Tigers.

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1 hour ago, Tigrrfan said:

I agree that a team full of Chet Lemon caliber players up and down their lineup with average or better pitching would be expected to win the Al Central.  But that's talking the AL Central. 

What that means is that it is going to take a whole lot of Daz Camerons to beat out AL teams like the Yankees and Astros for the AL pennant before at least year 2023.

Chet Lemon is 232nd all time for career WAR.

I get there are flaws with WAR, and I understand the differences between players #200 and #300 are probably smaller than any stat can hope to accurately and repeatedly differentiate. 

Look at him in the most negative light, Chet was almost certainly a top 500 player in the history of the game.

We should be lucky that any prospect becomes that.

Setting that aside, there have been over 19,000 men who have played in the major leagues.

He is **at least** a 95th percentile player in MLB history (500 out of 19000 puts him north of 97 percentile), and it is probable he was closer to having been a 99th percentile player than merely a 95th percentile player.

A team full of Chet Lemons would win routinely with average or better pitching.  They probably would average 100 wins a season or something.

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