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Fiers traded to Oakland for 2 PTBNL or cash

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On 8/18/2018 at 5:14 PM, LooseGoose said:

He's lanky.   May be gritty.   Will reserve judgement.  

But is he scrappy?

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56 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

Fiers looks like a guy who can't pitch very deep very often anymore. He may do OK if his manager has the BP to protect him.

You mean like half the starting pitchers in baseball now?  

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39 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

You mean like half the starting pitchers in baseball now?  

It seems pretty obvious where things are going, yet a lot of managers still seem to be resisting the new paradigm. Do you remember when Nolan Ryan took over the Rangers how he had this big thing that they were were going to condition and teach pitchers how to pitch deeper like they used to, and it went absolutely nowhere? They never made a dent. That put me onto the idea that it's not really the pitchers but the game that has changed and it's just spitting against the wind to fight it as a team or manager. Maybe someday the rules or equipment will shift in some way that will make it possible for one pitcher to pitch more of a game again, but until then I think it is just stupid for managers and GMs to keep fighting the last war - beating on pitchers to suck it up and pitch longer. All you are going to do is lose.

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11 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

I seems pretty obvious where things are going, yet a lot of managers still seem to be resisting the new paradigm. Do you remember when Nolan Ryan took over the Rangers how he had this big thing that they were were going to condition and teach pitchers how to pitch deeper like they used to, and it went absolutely nowhere? They never made a dent. That put me onto the idea that it's not really the pitchers but the game that has changed and it's just spitting against the wind to fight it as a team or manager. Maybe someday the rules or equipment will shift in some way that will make it possible for one pitcher to pitch more of a game again, but until then I think it is just stupid for managers and GMs to keep fighting the last war - beating on pitchers to suck it up and pitch longer. All you are going to do is lose.

You're lucky NR can't reach you to put you in a head lock.

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1 hour ago, Shelton said:

But I guess if he’s truly a 5+ era pitcher, then more credit to Avila for selling high!

"selling high" is quite the imagination.

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5 minutes ago, Tigrrfan said:

"selling high" is quite the imagination.

No, no, that's selling while you are high.  

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Fiers may or may not come back down to earth in a manner that puts his season ERA above 4, but chances are overwhelmingly great that he will not maintain a 1.47 ERA and 0.655 WHIP the rest of the season for the A's.  However, I certainly wish Fiers the very best. 

Another pace that will not remain is Oakland's record the past 55 games at 41-14 (.745) ..just not going to happen.

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9 minutes ago, Tigrrfan said:

"selling high" is quite the imagination.

If Fiers is a horrible pitcher how is trading him for a couple prospects anything else?

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1 minute ago, Tigrrfan said:

Fiers may or may not come back down to earth in a manner that puts his season ERA above 4, but chances are overwhelmingly great that he will not maintain a 1.47 ERA and 0.655 WHIP the rest of the season for the A's.  However, I certainly wish Fiers the very best. 

Another pace that will not remain is Oakland's record the past 55 games at 41-14 (.745) ..just not going to happen.

Really going out on a limb here. 

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50 minutes ago, bobrob2004 said:

Here's a random stat.  Before the firing of Chris Bosio, Liriano had an ERA of 3.94.  Since his firing, his ERA is 6.06.  

As I recall his FIP was not great at any point in time with the Tigers.

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34 minutes ago, Shelton said:

If Fiers is a horrible pitcher how is trading him for a couple prospects anything else?

"prospects" is also quite a stretch of the imagination.

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35 minutes ago, Shelton said:

Really going out on a limb here. 

Just pointing out the obvious ..which the media seems blind to.

I believe more folks would be more intelligent if not for the inundation of media hyperbole.

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6 minutes ago, Tigrrfan said:

Just pointing out the obvious ..which the media seems blind to.

I believe more folks would be more intelligent if not for the inundation of media hyperbole.

It’s about ethics in baseball journalism. 

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4 hours ago, Shelton said:

“Back to earth” is still a valuable starting pitcher. 

Yep, I don't mean to imply otherwise.  He's a right-handed older version of Matt Boyd.  There's value there.

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2 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

It seems pretty obvious where things are going, yet a lot of managers still seem to be resisting the new paradigm. Do you remember when Nolan Ryan took over the Rangers how he had this big thing that they were were going to condition and teach pitchers how to pitch deeper like they used to, and it went absolutely nowhere? They never made a dent. That put me onto the idea that it's not really the pitchers but the game that has changed and it's just spitting against the wind to fight it as a team or manager. Maybe someday the rules or equipment will shift in some way that will make it possible for one pitcher to pitch more of a game again, but until then I think it is just stupid for managers and GMs to keep fighting the last war - beating on pitchers to suck it up and pitch longer. All you are going to do is lose.

Yeah, this.  I keep beating a dead horse, but insofar as pitching is concerned, you still have to have the front-line talent, but the selection and management of pieces and parts between the GM and Manager (with a fair amount of luck of course) is key. 

I actually think Gardy is pretty good at his part of the pitching staff management game.  Pair him up with a better GM and I think you'd have a good result pitching-wise.  AA needs to be upgraded....and frankly, Chris I's willingness to spend needs to be upgraded, but they could make the playoffs (and I'll bet make a nice profit) by 2020 with Gardy if their ownership were committed to the correct course and they had the right GM.

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1 minute ago, sabretooth said:

Yeah, this.  I keep beating a dead horse, but insofar as pitching is concerned, you still have to have the front-line talent, but the selection and management of pieces and parts between the GM and Manager (with a fair amount of luck of course) is key. 

I actually think Gardy is pretty good at his part of the pitching staff management game.  Pair him up with a better GM and I think you'd have a good result pitching-wise.  AA needs to be upgraded....and frankly, Chris I's willingness to spend needs to be upgraded, but they could make the playoffs (and I'll bet make a nice profit) by 2020 with Gardy if their ownership were committed to the correct course and they had the right GM.

I suspect that ownership and the GM consider 2020 as a possible year of contention, pending development of the players in their system. They could be looking at a large influx of decent talent in 2020. Pretty much anyone at AA or AAA right now is fair game to dream on for opening day 2020, plus Mize, too.

You could be looking at Mize and Fulmer and Faedo in the rotation.  Burrows as a good bullpen arm. Perez possibly  

Cameron and paredes and Rogers and Alcantara at the up the middle spots  

it requires some optimism, but that also ignores everyone else already on the team or in the system. They could head into the offseason prior to 2020 with a lot of money to spend and a handful of positions to fill.

all of that can be done with Avila and ilitch running the show, because all it takes is time and positive development. A different GM or owner wouldn’t change that.

 

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4 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

It seems pretty obvious where things are going, yet a lot of managers still seem to be resisting the new paradigm. Do you remember when Nolan Ryan took over the Rangers how he had this big thing that they were were going to condition and teach pitchers how to pitch deeper like they used to, and it went absolutely nowhere? They never made a dent. That put me onto the idea that it's not really the pitchers but the game that has changed and it's just spitting against the wind to fight it as a team or manager. Maybe someday the rules or equipment will shift in some way that will make it possible for one pitcher to pitch more of a game again, but until then I think it is just stupid for managers and GMs to keep fighting the last war - beating on pitchers to suck it up and pitch longer. All you are going to do is lose.

It is money.  Money is changing the game.  Ditch the concept of starting pitcher all together.  14 pitchers...expect to pitch around 100 innings.  Maybe back to back, maybe 2 innings, but most of the time you are going in to pitch one inning.

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8 minutes ago, John_Brian_K said:

It is money.  Money is changing the game.  Ditch the concept of starting pitcher all together.  14 pitchers...expect to pitch around 100 innings.  Maybe back to back, maybe 2 innings, but most of the time you are going in to pitch one inning.

I can buy the basic concept, but I tend to think the optimal would be more like 3 or 4 IP, or maybe 50 pitches, every 3rd or 4th day. Always give them 48 hrs min recoup time - nobody works past being tired.

I think the only thing that keeps this from already being the model is that there are still just enough guys out there that can give you 200+ quality innings that no-one is willing to give up that 100 or 200 innings from their one or two top pitchers to get a couple hundred less stressed and thus probably better ones from the middling guys.

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I think we are starting to see a change in how pitching staffs are handled. I still think there will be a lot of pitchers that are well suited to 6 inning stints, but we may see more “openers” that start games every few days, followed by these 5-6 inning guys, before giving way to bridge guys and closers. 

You never know how a game will progress and whether a pitcher will be on his game or not, so you can add flexibility by having some guys that eat innings in likely losses. It isn’t glamorous, but teams may be able to have a number of guys that they can shuttle between the majors and aaa to fill that mop up role. 

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5 hours ago, Shelton said:

I suspect that ownership and the GM consider 2020 as a possible year of contention, pending development of the players in their system. They could be looking at a large influx of decent talent in 2020. Pretty much anyone at AA or AAA right now is fair game to dream on for opening day 2020, plus Mize, too.

You could be looking at Mize and Fulmer and Faedo in the rotation.  Burrows as a good bullpen arm. Perez possibly  

Cameron and paredes and Rogers and Alcantara at the up the middle spots  

it requires some optimism, but that also ignores everyone else already on the team or in the system. They could head into the offseason prior to 2020 with a lot of money to spend and a handful of positions to fill.

all of that can be done with Avila and ilitch running the show, because all it takes is time and positive development. A different GM or owner wouldn’t change that.

 

I agree that it **could** be done but I doubt that Chris I has the intention to spend or that AA has the ability to build + capitalize on talent.

I do think another owner would hire a better GM and spend more.  Im not speculating about tge potential effectiveness of changing ownership or the GM relative to 2020...just saying that our leadership is below par in my opinion.

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4 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

I can buy the basic concept, but I tend to think the optimal would be more like 3 or 4 IP, or maybe 50 pitches, every 3rd or 4th day. Always give them 48 hrs min recoup time - nobody works past being tired.

I think the only thing that keeps this from already being the model is that there are still just enough guys out there that can give you 200+ quality innings that no-one is willing to give up that 100 or 200 innings from their one or two top pitchers to get a couple hundred less stressed and thus probably better ones from the middling guys.

If you are going to muscle failure, understanding human physiology, a five day cycle is ideal and on the fifth day the muscle is fully rejuvenated and at peak strength. There is a reason starting pitchers evolved into a five day rotation. 

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Has the other player been named yet?  If he has and he's of the quality of the first guy I gotta say that I'm a bit disappointed.  I wasn't expecting a premier prospect or anything but with how Fiers was performing I was hoping we could get somebody like we got for Martin.  

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15 hours ago, Keepleyland2 said:

Why wouldn't they pick up hi arbitration at likey $8 million? 

They've had $80 million payrolls for the last five years

The A's won't pay Fiers $8 Million. Huh-uh. No.

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2 hours ago, Longgone said:

If you are going to muscle failure, understanding human physiology, a five day cycle is ideal and on the fifth day the muscle is fully rejuvenated and at peak strength. There is a reason starting pitchers evolved into a five day rotation. 

even given that, most pro athletes don't have the luxury of 5 days off between contests and the economics and roster issues of 5 ip or less every 5th day don't work well, so I would argue that if the system is going to change (which is of course pure speculation anyway) that you cut down the workload per start down to a level where the benefit of taking 5 days off falls to a point where it is less than what you gain by scheduling 2 or three moderately fresh guys for each start.

All that said, I have my doubts MLB ever goes there. There are still enough Verlanders, Klubers, Scherzers able to give you 100+ pitches every 5 days that I think getting the most out of 'the best' will still be the consideration that drives pitching scheduling. And my oft expressed though unlikely to be realized hope, is that the league makes some move to make life easier for pitchers and reverses this momentum to larger pitching staffs at the game play level.

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