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six-hopper

Lowering the bar for the Hall of Fame

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7 hours ago, mickeyb105 said:

Lolich for HOF isn't the hill I would choose to do die on, mind you, but the four year stretch where he totaled 1311 IP, 96 CG and 14 SH0, while getting top 3 Cy voting the first two of those years (71&72), is a remarkable feat IMO. 

I agree with all of that and would add is more impressive than anything Jack Morris accomplished, IMO.

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18 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

I agree with all of that and would add is more impressive than anything Jack Morris accomplished, IMO.

Agreed.

Would Lolich be in the Hall if he had, at minimum, a Morris-level mustache?

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28 minutes ago, mickeyb105 said:

Agreed.

Would Lolich be in the Hall if he had, at minimum, a Morris-level mustache?

Would Lolich be in the Hall if he had a broadcast career where he could continue to tout himself? Would Lolich be in the Hall if there were cable TV and more access to the games as was the case with Morris?

That, to me, is the big difference. Jack is in the hall because Jack wouldn't shut up about Jack.

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When Lolich retired he was the all time K leader among LH pitchers. I know some people don't like the "stick around long enough to make enough numbers for the Hall" aspect of the HOF, but the fact is that it has always been a criteria for the Hall. I don't see how a guy finishes his career as the all time leader in such a fundamental stat as K's in his class of player and doesn't make the Hall.

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On 7/12/2018 at 7:49 AM, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

As a general rule of thumb, worst hall of famers were veteran's committee picks.

Smoltz belongs.  Schilling and Mussina as well.

Morris does not.

Ivan Rodriguez was not tied to roids like Bonds was.

Its a nonsense, in that Bonds and Clemens are going to get into the hall.  Book it.

Not having the arguably best position player and best pitcher of all time in the Hall of Fame -- not to mention Mark McGwire, Jason Giambi, Rafael Palmeiro, and several others excluded pursuant to the stupid sanctimony over steroids, plus Pete Rose -- while guys like Morris and Andre Dawson get in, makes the Hall of Fame irrelevant to me at best, and really deserving of ridicule.

 

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2 hours ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

I can't argue with any of that, especially since baseball took a blind eye to steroids because HR were good for their bottom line.

A blind eye at best.  There is plenty of evidence that pretty much everyone in baseball management knew that steroid use was rampant, and I am confident that in many cases it was not merely condoned but actively encouraged by the guys in charge.  Bud Slug's announcement to the effect that he was "shocked, shocked" to discover that players were juicing -- which he made only after PEDs became a public-relations problem -- was as hollow and insincere as a stripper's smile.

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3 hours ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

It is a good moustache. 

Remember when he pitched for the Reds and they had a no moustache code?

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1 hour ago, six-hopper said:

Not having the arguably best position player and best pitcher of all time in the Hall of Fame -- not to mention Mark McGwire, Jason Giambi, Rafael Palmeiro, and several others excluded pursuant to the stupid sanctimony over steroids, plus Pete Rose -- while guys like Morris and Andre Dawson get in, makes the Hall of Fame irrelevant to me at best, and really deserving of ridicule.

 

The HOF is a complete joke.  The whole you are on the ballot for 10 years is stupid.  You are either a HOFer or not.  Suddenly in year 7, you are now a HOFer?

The HOF and the HOF voters come across as petty and seem to hold double standards.  Phil Neikro and Whitey Ford are in the HOF.  They have admitted to scuffing balls and cheating.  

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3 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

When Lolich retired he was the all time K leader among LH pitchers. I know some people don't like the "stick around long enough to make enough numbers for the Hall" aspect of the HOF, but the fact is that it has always been a criteria for the Hall. I don't see how a guy finishes his career as the all time leader in such a fundamental stat as K's in his class of player and doesn't make the Hall.

Yes, when he retired, Lolich had the Major League record for strikeouts by a lefthanded pitcher.  (The next year, the record was broken by Steve Carlton, who then went on to add 1300 more Ks to the record.) 

Still, until last year, Lolich held the American League record for career strikeouts by a lefthanded pitcher.  Of course, it helped that Randy Johnson pitched half of his career in the National League.

Last season, C.C. Sabathia passed Lolich in strikeouts.

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I brought Lolich up mostly because it was so great to buy donuts in my 20s from a guy I'd idolized as a kid.   That and the fact that I always felt he and Freehan never got the proper respect for the careers they had.

 

Kaline was the HoF guy - McClain got all the big headlines good and bad - Horton and the Gator got the "city healing" props - etc, etc      It just seemed at times as people looked back on that era those two deserved more than they got.

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10 hours ago, gmoney said:

The HOF is a complete joke.  The whole you are on the ballot for 10 years is stupid.  You are either a HOFer or not.  Suddenly in year 7, you are now a HOFer?

 

People's views on what a Hall of Famer is can change as new research is done.  

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To me a Hall of Famer needs to be somebody that was viewed as top 2-3 at their position for atleast a few years.(top 5-6 in regards to pitchers)   To me your peak matters more than your total numbers.  That's why on my hypothetical ballot I would've voted for Johan Santana last year.  For a half decade he was viewed as the best pitcher in the world.  To me a guy like that is more worthy of the Hall of Fame than say somebody that was viewed as really good for an extended period of time but was never in the discussion for best at their position.   

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6 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

To me a Hall of Famer needs to be somebody that was viewed as top 2-3 at their position for atleast a few years.(top 5-6 in regards to pitchers)   To me your peak matters more than your total numbers.  That's why on my hypothetical ballot I would've voted for Johan Santana last year.  For a half decade he was viewed as the best pitcher in the world.  To me a guy like that is more worthy of the Hall of Fame than say somebody that was viewed as really good for an extended period of time but was never in the discussion for best at their position.   

and yet the opposite argument is always used against Freehan, who was by far the best at his position in his league for a number of years - 10 straight ASGs and two top 3 MVP finishes at a position that produces few MVPs, but only played 13 full seasons.

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20 hours ago, six-hopper said:

Not having the arguably best position player and best pitcher of all time in the Hall of Fame -- not to mention Mark McGwire, Jason Giambi, Rafael Palmeiro, and several others excluded pursuant to the stupid sanctimony over steroids, plus Pete Rose -- while guys like Morris and Andre Dawson get in, makes the Hall of Fame irrelevant to me at best, and really deserving of ridicule.

 

Makes good sense.

When I visited, I was much more intrigued by the numerous artifacts and displays rather than the actual wing of players' plaques.  I honestly don't know that I feel much differently about the hall now that Trammell and Morris are inducted.  

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14 hours ago, Casimir said:

Makes good sense.

When I visited, I was much more intrigued by the numerous artifacts and displays rather than the actual wing of players' plaques.  I honestly don't know that I feel much differently about the hall now that Trammell and Morris are inducted.  

I agree completely.  It will be fun to see the speeches in a couple of weeks and to have everybody talking about them for a couple of days, but a trip to the Hall of Fame won't be much different.  I will go into the plaque room and feel proud for a few seconds and then go visit the more interesting parts of the building.  

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14 hours ago, Biff Mayhem said:

Surprised no one took the Pete Rise bait. 

Ever since MLB partnered with draft kings, I care less about the possibility of Pete Rose getting in some day.  I envision MLB getting more involved in gambling once sports betting becomes legal and they can profit from it.  

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As disgusting as Baseball hopping into the sack with DraftKings and other "gaming" elements is, at least they haven't moved along to fixing games. The same can't be said for Pete Rose, who admitted laying bets on games in which he had a duty to perform, and thus whose actions could influence the outcome. That's still a big difference, and why Pete Rose can never be allowed to go to the Hall of Fame without buying a ticket.

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As for Mickey Lolich, he might be in the Hall of Fame if his career had a more graceful ending. He was quite good for quite some time, but he hit a wall at age 35, and he was never quite so good again. If he could have had at least halfway decent seasons into his late 30s/pushing 40, he might have gotten more consideration.

As it is, WAR is a counting stat that inordinately benefit long careers at the expense of very-good-to-great-careers, which is why I've come around to Wins Above Average when contemplating Hall of Fame worthiness. After all, the Hall should be a reward for players who are way above average, not necessarily only for players who are way above minor league replacements.

Lolich had a 48.2 career WAR on B-R, but he also had a 16.8 WAA. That would put him comfortably into the bottom tier of Hall of Famers if he had gone in, around guys like Jack Chesbro, Chief Bender, Red Ruffing, and Bob Lemon. Interestingly, Ruffing and Lemon were voted in by sportswriters, not old timers, but their careers featured either a lot more black ink or rings, both of which make for better narratives than sustained very-goodness.

Interestingly, Lolich's WAR on Fangraphs is 64.2, which ranks 39th highest of all-time, and higher than guys like Bob Feller, Juan Marichal, Carl Hubbell, and a few other guys I could name who are considered slam-dunk inner-circle Hall of Famers. I have no idea why Fangraphs and B-R diverge so much on the Lolich question. I should look into that ...

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17 minutes ago, chasfh said:

As for Mickey Lolich, he might be in the Hall of Fame if his career had a more graceful ending. He was quite good for quite some time, but he hit a wall at age 35, and he was never quite so good again. If he could have had at least halfway decent seasons into his late 30s/pushing 40, he might have gotten more consideration.

As it is, WAR is a counting stat that inordinately benefit long careers at the expense of very-good-to-great-careers, which is why I've come around to Wins Above Average when contemplating Hall of Fame worthiness. After all, the Hall should be a reward for players who are way above average, not necessarily only for players who are way above minor league replacements.

Lolich had a 48.2 career WAR on B-R, but he also had a 16.8 WAA. That would put him comfortably into the bottom tier of Hall of Famers if he had gone in, around guys like Jack Chesbro, Chief Bender, Red Ruffing, and Bob Lemon. Interestingly, Ruffing and Lemon were voted in by sportswriters, not old timers, but their careers featured either a lot more black ink or rings, both of which make for better narratives than sustained very-goodness.

Interestingly, Lolich's WAR on Fangraphs is 64.2, which ranks 39th highest of all-time, and higher than guys like Bob Feller, Juan Marichal, Carl Hubbell, and a few other guys I could name who are considered slam-dunk inner-circle Hall of Famers. I have no idea why Fangraphs and B-R diverge so much on the Lolich question. I should look into that ...

There's really no difference between looking at WAR or WAA, you're just moving the scale up from "replacement-level player" to "league average player."  When comparing players, WAA isn't going to make one player look any better than just looking at WAR.  

Baseball-reference calculates it's WAR based on ERA while FanGraphs calculates it based on FIP.  Lolich's FIP was better than his ERA, which is why his fWAR is better than his rWAR.  

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47 minutes ago, chasfh said:

As disgusting as Baseball hopping into the sack with DraftKings and other "gaming" elements is, at least they haven't moved along to fixing games. The same can't be said for Pete Rose, who admitted laying bets on games in which he had a duty to perform, and thus whose actions could influence the outcome. That's still a big difference, and why Pete Rose can never be allowed to go to the Hall of Fame without buying a ticket.

I agree, but I am calling out the hypocrisy of MLB.  They claim to disassociate themselves from any kind of gambling activity and then join the party as soon as they see that a profit can be made.  I think this kind of partnership sets a bad precedent which could very easily lead to the same kind of activity that got Rose banned.  

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