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six-hopper

Lowering the bar for the Hall of Fame

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The Hall of Fame has become a bad joke, with no apparent rhyme or reason as to who gets in.

I loved the Tigers of the 1980s, and of course the 1984 team.  I was in Tiger Stadium when the 84 boys clinched the division, when they won the pennant, and for all three home World Series games.

That being said, I don't think that Jack Morris is within a country mile of being a legitimate Hall of Famer.  When he is inducted, he will have the distinction of owning the highest Career ERA -- 3.90 -- of any pitcher in the HOF.  Not to mention a very un-plaque-in-Cooperstown-like 105 ERA+, a whopping 5 percent better than average.

Meanwhile, Mike Mussina, with 270 wins and a 123 ERA+, is on the outside looking in.  And, of course, so is the best player and the one most deserving of the Hall of Fame among the 84 Tigers, Lou Whitaker. 

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This ship has already sailed.

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It is going to be renamed the Hall of Good Players and guys that hung around a long, long time to rack up some stats.  Just because someone plays 20 years and was above average most of those years doesn't mean he is a hall of famer.  In all fairness, Morris and Trammell both got in by the veteran's committee.  They must have liked those guys.  

But then again...John Smoltz was a good pitcher who hung around for 20 years, but when I think of him I certainly don't think Hall of Famer.   He was dominant about one year in his career.  Sports writers voted for him...they liked him.  Curt Schilling has almost identical stats over his career as Smoltz; he is a major d-bag.  He isn't in the Hall of Fame.

Tony Perez was beloved by sports writers.  Another above average player who is in the Hall of Fame.

Ivan Rodriguez was a roider.  Barry Bonds was a roider.  One of those guys was beloved by sports writers; the other is reviled by sports writers.  One is in the Hall of Fame, the other isn't.  Not all roiders are created equally.  The best hitter and pitcher I have ever seen are not in the Hall of Fame.  They were using roids...so were 90% of the players they were competing against. 

 

The fact that Greg Maddux only got 555 out of 571 votes, tells me that some sports writers are complete idiots and tools. One guy voted for Jack Morris but didn't vote for Greg Maddux on his ballot.  How can he even justify doing that?

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It's criminal that Mussina isn't in but then again when he played I always felt he flew a little under the radar which is surprising considering he played on those good Orioles teams and of course the Yankees.

 

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As a general rule of thumb, worst hall of famers were veteran's committee picks.

Smoltz belongs.  Schilling and Mussina as well.

Morris does not.

Ivan Rodriguez was not tied to roids like Bonds was.

Its a nonsense, in that Bonds and Clemens are going to get into the hall.  Book it.

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But Morris was clutch in the biggest games.   That does matter.     People remember that Game 7 in 1991.  

I don't know how it took so long for Alan Trammell to get in and how the **** Lou Whitaker doesn't get in with him.    Ozzie Smith is first ballot and Tram has to get in from the VC vote?    Ozzie dazzled and you could argue he may have been a hair better, but even with that argument, you can't say Ozzie is a first vote guy and Tram had to wait this long.    And I don't think Ozzie was a better player,  just a more exciting one.    

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Plus Morris pitched to the score, that was the thing to do before pitching to contact.

Lolich belonged in the HoF before Morris.

 

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Morris didn’t always pitch well In the playoffs.  Let’s just correct that myth right now.  He was pedestrian in the ‘91 ALCS and awful in the ‘92 ALCS and ‘92 WS.  He also gave up 6 run season to the Twins in ‘87 in game two which allowed that series to go 0-2 rather than 1-1.

He pitched a helluva game 7 to win the ‘91 WS.  But let’s be fair about his playoff legend and admit that his persona is weighted too heavily to one game.

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25 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

As a general rule of thumb, worst hall of famers were veteran's committee picks.

Smoltz belongs.  Schilling and Mussina as well.

Morris does not.

Ivan Rodriguez was not tied to roids like Bonds was.

Its a nonsense, in that Bonds and Clemens are going to get into the hall.  Book it.

I think Pudge dabbled with it.     Nothing like Bonds or Canseco, but who is tied to roids more than those two.  

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Just now, Casimir said:

Morris didn’t always pitch well In the playoffs.  Let’s just correct that myth right now.  He was pedestrian in the ‘91 ALCS and awful in the ‘92 ALCS and ‘92 WS.  He also gave up 6 run season to the Twins in ‘87 in game two which allowed that series to go 0-2 rather than 1-1.

He pitched a helluva game 7 to win the ‘91 WS.  But let’s be fair about his playoff legend and admit that his persona is weighted too heavily to one game.

But it is...............That's the game that people will always remember.    

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7 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

But it is...............That's the game that people will always remember.    

He pitched a helluva game 7.  But he’s not the big game pitcher that his reputation suggests.

And I don’t think the hall of fame should be based on one game and an inaccurate reputation.

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8 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

But it is...............That's the game that people will always remember.    

Which doesn't necessarily make it right.

Besides, Kirk Gibson had some clutch HR.  Nobody argues he should be in the Hall.

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Frank Tanana had a higher career WAR, better ERA, better WHIP, and pitched a do or die complete game shut out.  Where is his Hall of fame plaque?

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Lonnie Smith held up in the 8th inning on a Pendleton double and he should have scored.  Quite possibly the Braves could have won 1-0.  Morris had nothing to do with that.  

But I'm not up in arms that he made it since Tram did too.  If Tram wouldn't have made it then I would have been upset.

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I’m upset about the Whitaker exclusion.  He drops off of the first ballot and Morris goes in?  Rubbish.

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Morris may be one of the worst SP in the HOF, and Lolich deserves to be there possibly more.  Blyleven may deserve to be in more.

However, Morris (Blyleven and Lolich, moreso) was a workhorse inning-eater we haven't seen the likes of in some time and may never see again.  Lolich's 376 IP and 29 CG in 1971 is hard to comprehend today, and is heavily discounted as an accomplishment.

Morris threw 175 CG and 28 SHo.  Sabbathia and Colon are the active CG leaders with 44, Kershaw the active SHo leader with 15.   He had really, really bad years at age 34, 38 and 39.  There were no CY years to offset this, and that's a tough one to swallow for a lot of people.

At the end of the day, I can't be mad about Morris and Tram getting into the HOF together.  Maybe if it was just Morris, I guess, but the '84 team was too good to not be represented.

Whittaker's case for the HOF is strong, but the old writers who hated him are still voting.  He'll get in someday, no way around it.  Mussina might someday as well, though I could care less about him compared to Lolich.

 

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6 hours ago, Motor City Sonics said:

But Morris was clutch in the biggest games.   That does matter.     People remember that Game 7 in 1991.  

I don't know how it took so long for Alan Trammell to get in and how the **** Lou Whitaker doesn't get in with him.    Ozzie Smith is first ballot and Tram has to get in from the VC vote?    Ozzie dazzled and you could argue he may have been a hair better, but even with that argument, you can't say Ozzie is a first vote guy and Tram had to wait this long.    And I don't think Ozzie was a better player,  just a more exciting one.    

If being "clutch" in a very small sample, even of the "biggest games," is enough for a guy for a guy to get in even though his overall career falls well short of Hall-of-Fame worthiness, Bucky Dent would have an argument for a plaque in Cooperstown.

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1 minute ago, six-hopper said:

If being "clutch" in a very small sample, even of the "biggest games," is enough for a guy for a guy to get in even though his overall career falls well short of Hall-of-Fame worthiness, Bucky Dent would have an argument for a plaque in Cooperstown.  And, as was mentioned above, so would Kirk Gibson.  Gibson is my favorite Tiger in my life as a baseball fan, but he isn't a Hall of Famer based upon a few big-time home runs.  (Even though when he hit that second one in Game Five in 1984, which locked up the World Series while I was there to see it, it was one of the happiest moments of my life.) 

 

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I think, if anything, it is harder to get in the hall now.  Yeah there is the odd Jack Morris or Jim Rice, but by and large you have to be a no doubter without much PED stink to get in.

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8 hours ago, mickeyb105 said:

Morris may be one of the worst SP in the HOF, and Lolich deserves to be there possibly more.  Blyleven may deserve to be in more.

Bert Blyleven was inducted into the HOF in 2011.

 

Lolich pitched among some of baseball's all-time best pitchers.  He was good .. but other than the '68 WS .. he was never great.  Never had a 'no-no' ..never CY ..always pitched in somebody else's shadow.  Even his 376 IP's in '71 were matched by Wilber Wood in '72. 

Mickey was one of those so-called 'tough-luck' pitchers who often lost games he could have ..and probably should have ..won.

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5 hours ago, Tigrrfan said:

 

Bert Blyleven was inducted into the HOF in 2011.

 

Lolich pitched among some of baseball's all-time best pitchers.  He was good .. but other than the '68 WS .. he was never great.  Never had a 'no-no' ..never CY ..always pitched in somebody else's shadow.  Even his 376 IP's in '71 were matched by Wilber Wood in '72. 

Mickey was one of those so-called 'tough-luck' pitchers who often lost games he could have ..and probably should have ..won.

You throw that deep onto games that often like Lolich did and you will take some tough losses... 45 starts and 29 CG in that 71 year alone.  Was he really pitching in Joe Coleman's shadow?  Obviously he was in McClain's in the late 60s.

Lolich for HOF isn't the hill I would choose to do die on, mind you, but the four year stretch where he totaled 1311 IP, 96 CG and 14 SH0, while getting top 3 Cy voting the first two of those years (71&72), is a remarkable feat IMO. 

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