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Is it time to let Victor Ride Off into the Sunset??

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According to Baseball-Reference, Cabrera's Defensive WAR has been negative in every season of his career.  So he certainly isn't the second coming of Vic Power or Keith Hernandez in the field.

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6 hours ago, six-hopper said:

According to Baseball-Reference, Cabrera's Defensive WAR has been negative in every season of his career.  So he certainly isn't the second coming of Vic Power or Keith Hernandez in the field.

No, he has poor range on GBs now and he doesn't get to as much foul ground as you like either. But a thing to keep in mind about a 1b is that the single most important thing he does is salvage poor throws, and that doesn't really show up in the defensive metrics for batted balls handled. Cabrera has good footwork, a long reach, and great hands on throws and I would say he is above average at that aspect of 1b.

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1 hour ago, six-hopper said:

According to Baseball-Reference, Cabrera's Defensive WAR has been negative in every season of his career.  So he certainly isn't the second coming of Vic Power or Keith Hernandez in the field.

Most first baseman show a negative dWAR because it also includes the positional adjustment.  Cabrera, though, is a bad to average defender. Since 2016, Cabrera has the worst DRS at -17 runs.  https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=1b&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=y&type=1&season=2018&month=0&season1=2016&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=10,d

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On 6/27/2018 at 10:41 PM, kj2018 said:

Is it time to let Victor Ride Off into the Sunset??

 

Truthfully ..that time passed by before this season even started.  

Unfortunately ..the Tigers are terrible enough that a totally washed up player remains on-board as a full-time starting player.

And sadly ..it is difficult to preserve the 'good' memories of a former terrific player while he continues to create a bad memory.

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The best solution right now would be a "severely" pulled hammy - 60 day DL and then come back for say the KC series in Sept for a nice farewell day.

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Bobrob,

You're right, of course.  I didn't want to get into a discussion of better defensive metrics than dWAR -- just didn't have the time or the inclination -- but even given that first-base defense really isn't important, Cabrera is not a good defensive first baseman.  And I don't agree that he is notably good at saving bad throws, or much of anything else defensively, except that he has a much better throwing arm than many first basemen -- but given the very few throws that a first baseman makes, that isn't much of a mark on the positive side of his ledger.

My main point, of course, is that both first basemen and designated hitters need to be, you know, HITTERS.  First base has been the traditional refuge for poor defenders with big bats, and DH the home for really really poor defenders with big bats.  Given Cabrera's age and increasing injury problems, and the fact that the Tigers have him under a horrendous contract through 2023, plus his minimal-at-best defensive value; and the fact that Castellanos is a bad defender (at least at third and in the outfield) but is still young and is the best current offensive player on the team, Castellanos should move to first and Cabrera to DH.

And, of course, even with Cabrera out for the year, using the almost indescribably awful Victor Martinez as the DH (and the cleanup hitter, for God's sake) is inexcusable.  But that's obvious to everyone except, apparently, Astute Al Avila and Ron Illadvisedhire.

 

 

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Detroit News / Bob Wojnowski wrote an article on this topic that was just posted online this evening.  It was very complimentary of Victor (rightfully so), but it points out the facts and what should happen (but not will happen)

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/columnists/bob-wojnowski/2018/07/12/wojo-detroit-tigers-and-victor-martinez-end-near/779276002/

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It's pretty clear they don't want to humiliate him. So I think it's going to happen over the break. They'll call a press conference on the friday after the break and release him.

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12 hours ago, kj2018 said:

Detroit News / Bob Wojnowski wrote an article on this topic that was just posted online this evening.  It was very complimentary of Victor (rightfully so), but it points out the facts and what should happen (but not will happen)

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/columnists/bob-wojnowski/2018/07/12/wojo-detroit-tigers-and-victor-martinez-end-near/779276002/

Victor may be a shell of himself, and his numbers may be abysmal, but look at the lineup most days and you will see Victor batting 5th and every hitter below him with an even lower OPS - unless/until they have a hitter they *want* to call up, I don't think any of the aesthetics issues WoJo raises matter the to the Tigers, and they apparently don't matter to Victor either or he'd have hung them up voluntarily already.

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Nobody below Victor in the batting order has an OPS worse than what he has been doing lately, performing as The Incredible Shrinking V-Mart.  And among Tigers who've played regularly or at least somewhat regularly and have been around for most of the year, the only one with a season OPS or OPS+ lower than Victor's is Dixon Machado. 

Of the 164 players who have enough Plate Appearances to be "qualifiers" for a batting title, V-Mart's OPS ranks 160th.

But even that unpleasant stat  doesn't come close to telling the whole story of his awfulness, because he has recently been going downhill so rapidly.  He was no great shakes through May.  But in June he fell off to a Slash Line of .253 / .263 / .255 / .518, for  a "split" OPS+ (based on the league in June) of 47.

And halfway through July, his numbers for this month are .158 /.175 / .158 / .333, good for a July OPS+ of -8.  (Yes, negative 8.)

In the month of June, he had just three extra-base hits, all doubles.  So far in July he has only six hits total, none for extra bases.  His last home run was on May 19.

Continuing to play him in any capacity, much less as the everyday DH and in the cleanup spot or the five-hole, has gone way beyond ridiculous.  It was  painful to watch some great players at the end of their careers-- like Willie Mays batting .211  with an OPS of .647 and an OPS+ of 81, and looking hapless in the outfield, in his final season.  But that wasn't nearly as ugly as what we're seeing from Victor Martinez.

 

 

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The 'ultimate' professional will honor his contract ..and will suit up and play whenever his club asks him too.  It is not Victor's fault he is playing.  Nobody in their right mind would honestly retire early and give up millions of dollars.  Blame the Detroit Tiger organization for continuing to march Victor out there as often as they do.

Feel free to disagree.

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offinto the sunset. to begin a new, happy life at the end of a story: At the end of the film, the two of them ride off into the sunset. Succeeding, achieving and fulfilling. accomplish.

 

By definition, the Tigers are letting him ride off into the sunset by letting him play as cleanup when it’s obvious he’s done. That is his happy ending. We know it resembles a make a wish foundation scenario, but ultimately it doesn’t matter at all.

 

What OP meant was should we fire Victor. 

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3 hours ago, Tigrrfan said:

The 'ultimate' professional will honor his contract ..and will suit up and play whenever his club asks him too.  It is not Victor's fault he is playing.  Nobody in their right mind would honestly retire early and give up millions of dollars.  Blame the Detroit Tiger organization for continuing to march Victor out there as often as they do.

Feel free to disagree.

The Tigers can do what the Mariners did with Ichiro, have Martinez officially retire and move him to a front office position.  That way, they still honor his contract while not being useless on the field.  

Since June 1, V-Mart is hitting .205/.237/.227 with a 24 wRC+.  Slightly better than teammate James McCann, who is hitting .178/.217/.257 with a 25 wRC+.

Speaking of McCann, does he have any options left?  At what point do we just release him?  His is awful at the plate and his pitch calling and framing is horrendous.  He cost Fulmer on his framing in his last start.  These pitchers keep blaming umpires for an inconsistent strike zone, at what point we put the blame on McCann?  I get keeping an awful hitting catcher around for his defense, but McCann can't even do that.  There's more to defense than throwing out runners.  

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Per bbref, Detroit's DHs have accrued a -2.8 WAR this season, lastest in MLB.  Next closest is Baltimore at -1.2, Chicago & Minnesota & Cleveland at -0.6.

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From an organization standpoint:  He is not really blocking anyone, the team blows this year anyway, one year left, you just kind of hope he has a hot couple weeks and helps you win a few games.

From V-Marts standpoint:  Noway I am leaving money on the table, I play when they ask me to play, but I also keep my mouth shut if they decide to drop me 8th or something.

From a fans standpoint:  I kinda wish they would either just drop him and pay him, bring up some OF that is kinda close and that makes sense to give them reps in the biggs in a meaningless season, stick Casty at DH...or at the very least drop V Mart from the 5th spot.

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13 hours ago, bobrob2004 said:

The Tigers can do what the Mariners did with Ichiro, have Martinez officially retire and move him to a front office position.  That way, they still honor his contract while not being useless on the field.  

Since June 1, V-Mart is hitting .205/.237/.227 with a 24 wRC+.  Slightly better than teammate James McCann, who is hitting .178/.217/.257 with a 25 wRC+.

Speaking of McCann, does he have any options left?  At what point do we just release him?  His is awful at the plate and his pitch calling and framing is horrendous.  He cost Fulmer on his framing in his last start.  These pitchers keep blaming umpires for an inconsistent strike zone, at what point we put the blame on McCann?  I get keeping an awful hitting catcher around for his defense, but McCann can't even do that.  There's more to defense than throwing out runners.   

As I pointed out above, although Victor was awful in June, he has been much much worse in July.  Even though it's a small sample, he seems to be going downhill so fast that a reversal and a climb back even to merely awful doesn't seem like the way to bet.

They may be playing him just to have a well-known veteran in the lineup, even a really bad one.  If a Tiger fan just woke up from a year-long coma, he would have trouble recognizing this team.  A year or so ago, the roster and for the most part the lineup included Miguel Cabrera, J.D. Martinez, Justin Upton, Ian Kinsler, and Alex Avila; and Justin Verlander was on the mound every fifth day.  Now . . . not so much.   

Regarding McCann, yes, he may be a lost cause.  As you noted, his big arm and ability to throw out runners does not make him a serious Major League catcher or even a decent defensive one.  Good defensive catchers help keep batters from becoming baserunners in the first place. 

As for his offense, he has historically beaten up on lefties (although he isn't hitting even them this year), so he might have some future as a backup who plays only against southpaws, but I can't see him being any more than that.

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22 minutes ago, six-hopper said:

As I pointed out above, although Victor was awful in June, he has been much much worse in July. 

give the guy credit, he's preparing himself so that inactivity isn't a shock for him on his retirement.

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Hey, slowly shuffling toward first base while getting thrown out from right field is activity.  Sort of. 

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41 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

give the guy credit, he's preparing himself so that inactivity isn't a shock for him on his retirement.

That's an interesting way to look at it.

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30 minutes ago, six-hopper said:

Hey, slowly shuffling toward first base while getting thrown out from right field is activity.  Sort of. 

That hasn't actually happened.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yet.

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1 hour ago, Shelton said:

It’s only another 2.5 months. 

Do you think he'd waive his 10/5 rights if Avila got some GM completely blotto drunk?

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