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IdahoBert

Off day thread for two off days in four days

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Discuss amongst yourselves the many and varied issues facing this team as it either ascends Mount Olympus to make history or is cast into Heck.

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I'll restate my opinion that they will sell at the deadline, bring in a haul of prospects that will even impress this board.   Will this deflate the team?   Not a chance - the gritty youngsters use it for inspiration and continue their surge into the playoff picture as we approach September.    Just as spirits begin  to flag team mastermind Al Avila reaches down to Toledo for the secret weapon he's been harboring there all season.......

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How about that Adrian Houser, eh?  

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In other news, Brewers reliever Adrian Houser barfed behind the mound while warming up in the eighth inning. While for you, me and most people, barfing is a get-out-of-work-free card, Hauser stayed in the game and faced two batters before barfing a second time. Then he STILL stayed in the game, faced three more hitters and finished the inning, having given up one run on an RBI double to Scott Kingery.

Must'of been out with Bernie Brewer the night before.  

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I know how Adrian Houser feels.  When I moved to Tucson, Arizona in July many years ago I went from a temperate climate  in the 70s — without any acclimatization — to one that was 108° overnight.  For that first day I can tell you that I threw up more than the he did.  Over the next 13 years I lived there I never again had that problem.  But that first day was really a kick in the gut. 

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1 hour ago, LooseGoose said:

I'll restate my opinion that they will sell at the deadline, bring in a haul of prospects that will even impress this board.   Will this deflate the team?   Not a chance - the gritty youngsters use it for inspiration and continue their surge into the playoff picture as we approach September.    Just as spirits begin  to flag team mastermind Al Avila reaches down to Toledo for the secret weapon he's been harboring there all season.......

I don’t want them to get rid of Nicholas.  He’s home grown.  I don’t care if he never makes the Hall of Fame or wins a batting title or a gold glove.  He is one of those few instances where the Tigers did not just buy or trade for somebody but actually raised someone up through their own ranks.  

I think the calculus of winning by creative destruction has practical merit, but as a fan it’s good to have somebody to root for that’s one of “your own people.“  And now that we no longer have Verlander, Nick’s the best we’ve got.  I know this team is an impersonal corporation, but it’s hard to care about an entity like that, and you need to do something to give it a little more substance to make it different from everything else in this world. Nick is a pleasing reality I enjoy in what is otherwise in many ways just a wasteland. 

If they get rid of him they better get a haul that can do something to immediately fill his place.  I don’t want this team to be like the Marlins, where they constantly shed players to get new ones.  And I don’t care about the Marlin’s past successes. That’s still a crappy way to treat fans. 

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6 minutes ago, IdahoBert said:

I don’t want them to get rid of Nicholas.  He’s home grown.  I don’t care if he never makes the Hall of Fame or wins a batting title or a gold glove.  He is one of those few instances where the Tigers did not just buy or trade for somebody but actually raised someone up through their own ranks.  

I think the calculus of winning by creative destruction has practical merit, but as a fan it’s good to have somebody to root for that’s one of “your own people.“  And now that we no longer have Verlander, Nick’s the best we’ve got. 

If they get rid of him they better get a haul that can do something to immediately fill his place.  I don’t want this team to be like the Marlins, where they constantly shed players to get new ones.  And I don’t care about the Marlin’s past successes. That’s still a crappy way to treat fans. 

I'm kinda with ya on Nick though maybe not as strong since I see more of "our" kids coming up.   I had more of the group I've mentioned elsewhere in mind - Liriano, Fiers, Martin, AWilson, Hardy, Iggy, etc.

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59 minutes ago, IdahoBert said:

I don’t want them to get rid of Nicholas.  He’s home grown.  I don’t care if he never makes the Hall of Fame or wins a batting title or a gold glove.  He is one of those few instances where the Tigers did not just buy or trade for somebody but actually raised someone up through their own ranks.  

I think the calculus of winning by creative destruction has practical merit, but as a fan it’s good to have somebody to root for that’s one of “your own people.“  And now that we no longer have Verlander, Nick’s the best we’ve got.  I know this team is an impersonal corporation, but it’s hard to care about an entity like that, and you need to do something to give it a little more substance to make it different from everything else in this world. Nick is a pleasing reality I enjoy in what is otherwise in many ways just a wasteland. 

If they get rid of him they better get a haul that can do something to immediately fill his place.  I don’t want this team to be like the Marlins, where they constantly shed players to get new ones.  And I don’t care about the Marlin’s past successes. That’s still a crappy way to treat fans. 

I'm on board with extending Nick. Like you said, he's not going to be a hall of famer but he is a rare good hitter that is entirely home grown. If you ever want to have fans that aren't just of the fair weather variety, you have to give them something to stay invested in. I think he has taken enough of a step forward in the last year - in terms of his play and his a popularity -  that he's worth keeping around if he isn't asking for the moon. That being said, if someone makes you an unreal offer for him, I guess you have to take it. I'd just really rather not see it happen. I think he has five seasons of hitting .300 with 20 home runs ahead of him, and that's nothing to laugh at from a home grown player in the Tiger organization.

 

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14 minutes ago, Walewander said:

If you ever want to have fans that aren't just of the fair weather variety, you have to give them something to stay invested in. 

 

Regarding Nick, this is one of those places where the opposition between business and the emotional proclivities of fans does not have to be absolute.  Of course if someone offers them a whole lot, sure. 

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If JD brought back very little in return then Nick won't either. Add that to the fact he is not good defensively and will want to be paid much for "intangibles" like being homegrown that do not win games I think he will not be part of the rebuild. At least I hope Avila is level headed enough to not over pay.

 

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16 minutes ago, socaltiger said:

If JD brought back very little in return then Nick won't either. Add that to the fact he is not good defensively and will want to be paid much for "intangibles" like being homegrown that do not win games I think he will not be part of the rebuild. At least I hope Avila is level headed enough to not over pay.

 

Depends on what the contending teams need this year. And Nick is under control for another season, too. He could bring back a better return than JD did. 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, socaltiger said:

If JD brought back very little in return then Nick won't either. Add that to the fact he is not good defensively and will want to be paid much for "intangibles" like being homegrown that do not win games I think he will not be part of the rebuild. At least I hope Avila is level headed enough to not over pay.

 

Nick has an extra year of control. Which mean not only does a team get him for another season. They could QO him and get a draft pick if he leaves them. Much different than JD

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1 hour ago, socaltiger said:

If JD brought back very little in return then Nick won't either. Add that to the fact he is not good defensively and will want to be paid much for "intangibles" like being homegrown that do not win games I think he will not be part of the rebuild. At least I hope Avila is level headed enough to not over pay.

 

Isn't the opposite of this usually true?  I've heard of a hometown discount, never a hometown premium.  

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1 hour ago, Keepleyland2 said:

Nick has an extra year of control. Which mean not only does a team get him for another season. They could QO him and get a draft pick if he leaves them. Much different than JD

 

2 hours ago, Shelton said:

Depends on what the contending teams need this year. And Nick is under control for another season, too. He could bring back a better return than JD did. 

 

 

Thanks I had missed this point. Then despite liking him maybe trade him and stay committed to two way players since we have DH all full with Miggy and our best AAA bat is also a so so defender. 

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Manage your expectations.  Nationals just got the best closer on the market for three prospects that fell out of their top 10.  Greene will likely command less, or at best, comparable.

Casty and his inability to play a position (well) will restrict his value.

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I take my hat off to the scouting community.  They said, years ago, that there was a pretty good chance that Nick was going to hit, but that he would probably never field.  That's pretty much the way that it has turned out.

There have been some very good points raised here.  I loved Granderson because you could start out following him at NYP, and then watch him progress from there.  Nick isn't quite at that level of emotional investment with me but I don't want a turnstile of replacement players either, especially with position players.  I'm far more interested in watching position players progress than I am interested in watching pitchers, and right now Nick is the only one who has followed that path.

I think that he is young enough, and his bat is sort of good enough, to keep him.  On the other hand, although he's not in JD's class, he does have that extra year of cheap control.  I doubt that that would scare up a whole bunch of interest but you never know, you should at least listen.

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1 hour ago, Charles Liston said:

I take my hat off to the scouting community.  They said, years ago, that there was a pretty good chance that Nick was going to hit, but that he would probably never field. 

I find the fielding metric interesting. Nick is grading out about as bad a JD, but it still seems to me he is better. I suppose if I were inspired enough to get under the covers of Rdrs I could answer my own question, but I'm wondering if the complete misplays by Nick, which are indeed bad but are relatively small in number, tend to hurt him as much rating wise as JD's difficulty holding guys to singles on balls to his left (which I think Nick is better at), even though that is  a situation that comes into play relatively often and so is worse for team defense in my estimation.

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Wife got me tickets to see the Mud Hens play in August.  Behind the plate.  Looking forward to it.

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33 minutes ago, Oblong said:

Wife got me tickets to see the Mud Hens play in August.  Behind the plate.  Looking forward to it.

Nice area.

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A pretty good round up of small morsels for the morning after an off day:

Inside the Tigers: Life after Miggy, managing Joe Jimenez and questions about 2019 infield

 

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The question is whether Francisco Liriano is ready to come back and be that sixth man? He gave up eight runs on 11 hits in four innings in a rehab start with Triple-A Toledo on Sunday. (More encouragingly, he struck out seven and didn't issue a walk.)

If he returns as planned this weekend, there will be a logjam of possible starters for the Cleveland series. 

Presumably it will be Mike Fiers on Friday, Jordan Zimmermann on Saturday and then Liriano or Hardy on Sunday. 

The Tigers have two off-days this week but then play games on 20 consecutive days beginning on Friday. That's one reason the Tigers find a six-man rotation so appealing. 

When Liriano is activated, infielder Ronny Rodriguez is the most likely player to be optioned back to Toledo. That would put the Tigers' bench back to three players while maintaining a seven-man bullpen. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Oblong said:

Wife got me tickets to see the Mud Hens play in August.  Behind the plate.  Looking forward to it.

The Hens are in Charlotte, NC this weekend. Charlotte is the only minor league park we haven’t been to in NC but the heat right now is ridiculous. 

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21 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

7 man bullpen with 6 starters.

#getoffmylawn

It is ridiculous.  Unless one of those Ps is named Otani or Ruth.

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Just pretend Joe Maddon came up with it and everyone will think it's a great idea....

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10 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

 

I find the fielding metric interesting. Nick is grading out about as bad a JD, but it still seems to me he is better. I suppose if I were inspired enough to get under the covers of Rdrs I could answer my own question, but I'm wondering if the complete misplays by Nick, which are indeed bad but are relatively small in number, tend to hurt him as much rating wise as JD's difficulty holding guys to singles on balls to his left (which I think Nick is better at), even though that is  a situation that comes into play relatively often and so is worse for team defense in my estimation.

I think you're on to something there. I  believe that wherever he is at the end of this year is probably going to be his ceiling as a defender in RF. I think we'll see a few less blatant misplays, but not too much more overall improvement. Ideally, you'd have prime Al Kaline out there but I think he's passable if there are no better options that can hit as well. 

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One last thought on Castellanos play in RF : I may be giving him too much credit. It may be that with a strong CF in Martin/Jones, that Gardenhire is just willing to play Nick closer to the RF line than Ausmus and Leyland ever played JD. As I think about it, when at games and could watch the OF alignment, I always thought they played JD a long way off the line for guy that didn't go that way very well in the first place. Clearly their greater fear was triples up the gap, and maybe they didn't have the analytics support to get to a better decision or maybe they were just too weak in CF to do anything else. Gose had great straight line speed but had an absolutely terrible first step (i.e. deciding where to go) that largely negated it. Maybin was a well below average CF as well, and Jackson, who was a great defender when he came up, was never even close to the same guy after his hamstring issues - so it's been a while since we had a good defender in CF. Daylight madness for a team that plays in the park with the biggest CF in baseball wasn't it?

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