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DumberAndLeaner

After 72 games

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22 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Verlander turned it around before he left Detroit.  He just keep his play going.

I agree JV had made the base changes he needed to make. But I would guess that he raised his arm angle initially more out of trial and error - simply a return to a previously successful mechanics because he was getting hit, than a fully data supported understanding of it's effect. Once in Houston he was with people who had a clear set of working theories about how pitchers get hitters out and they had put the equipment such as the HS video and coaching in place to support their pitchers efforts to pitch to that understanding.

One of the things that is interesting to me in some of the articles that are coming out about Houston's approach is that in Houston, their philosophy is somewhat less command based and more pitch based. It has seemed to me that for a long time the big push - at least in Det - was mostly about command - pitch the ball to the corners where it's hard to hit - and pitching to contact. In Houston they seam to have more the idea that a pitcher is going to have to throw the ball over the plate a lot so they put a larger emphasis on the individual pitches being harder to square up - basically relatively more emphasis on speed and plane change (spin/vertical break)  to get swing and miss. And that all plays perfectly to JV's strengths. It's like he is the model pitcher for the system they believe in - which I don't believe was always true in Det. 

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Yeah - I am not claiming Detroit corrected Verlander vs. him figuring it out on his own, or even he wouldn't have corrected sooner in Houston because of better feedback.

I am merely pointing out that the narrative that Verlander started pitching well in Houston is inaccurate.  That change occurred before he was traded.

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4 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

I agree JV had made the base changes he needed to make. But I would guess that he raised his arm angle initially more out of trial and error - simply a return to a previously successful mechanics because he was getting hit, than a fully data supported understanding of it's effect. Once in Houston he was with people who had a clear set of working theories about how pitchers get hitters out and they had put the equipment such as the HS video and coaching in place to support their pitchers efforts to pitch to that understanding.

One of the things that is interesting to me in some of the articles that are coming out about Houston's approach is that in Houston, their philosophy is somewhat less command based and more pitch based. It has seemed to me that for a long time the big push - at least in Det - was mostly about command - pitch the ball to the corners where it's hard to hit - and pitching to contact. In Houston they seam to have more the idea that a pitcher is going to have to throw the ball over the plate a lot so they put a larger emphasis on the individual pitches being harder to square up - basically relatively more emphasis on speed and plane change (spin/vertical break)  to get swing and miss. And that all plays perfectly to JV's strengths. It's like he is the model pitcher for the system they believe in - which I don't believe was always true in Det. 

Gerrit Cole fits into that category as well which explains them targeting him over the off-season.  

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I think we've heard the "hopefuls" about Verlander finally putting it all back together at least a dozen times since his MVP season. I suggest the real difference is that once in Houston, his backsliding stopped. (so far)

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Right now the Tigers have the 9th worst record and are only 4 back of the Marlins for the 4th spot so I will be pretty surprised if they don't finish with a top 5 pick by years end.  

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31 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

Right now the Tigers have the 9th worst record and are only 4 back of the Marlins for the 4th spot so I will be pretty surprised if they don't finish with a top 5 pick by years end.  

I think a very good pick is pretty well assured. If you think about the rest of the season, they are not very good now and the probabilities are higher that they will lose some of their better players in trade than that any new good players will arrive.

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1 hour ago, DumberAndLeaner said:

I think we've heard the "hopefuls" about Verlander finally putting it all back together at least a dozen times since his MVP season. I suggest the real difference is that once in Houston, his backsliding stopped. (so far)

One gets the sense it really doesn't matter what happens or happened, you have your narrative.

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On 6/26/2018 at 11:09 AM, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

They also aren't bad enough to tank.  They are a run of the mill bad team.

Disagree. The Tigers are bad enough to tank. They've merely been bad at executing that part of the plan.

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On 6/26/2018 at 11:44 AM, Casimir said:

The players aren't going to try to tank.  And there is enough talent on the team to float above some other teams.

Right. Players would never, ever tank. If nothing else, their future employment prospects depend on their success, but also, professional athletes are born and/or trained competitors hard-wired to do everything they can to win every game, so it's simply against their nature to tank.

It's the organization that tanks by purposefully stocking the team in the short term with talent they deem just good enough to pass off to the media and fans as major leaguers (at least for a while), but not good enough to actually win enough games to cost the franchise a top draft pick. Tanking is an art form, because the organization has to stock the roster with talent they can plausibly defend as being able to win if they play right, while knowing they can't win (or at least hoping they don't). A key strategy here is keeping the media at bay, because if the media unanimously pillory the organization for tanking in a most obvious way, fans may well abandon the team, which can be fatal to a franchise.

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On 6/26/2018 at 9:20 PM, DumberAndLeaner said:

Until he got away from Asmuch....LOL! Verlander didn't even have his typical slow start this season did he? Do you attribute that to "nature" or to "nurture"?:wink:

I think nurture.

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As of today, the Tigers have equaled the 2017 team's longest losing streak. And before any deadline deal player loses.

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