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Johan Franzen is still struggling.....

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And if Babcock had won a few more games at the beginning of this season he'd still have his job and I bet none of this would have come out. Toronto, the most intense hockey media market in the world, yet all reporters sat on stories for years. Until having "access" didn't matter anymore.

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Correct.  Without access, most reporters are boned, so they tend to sit on stories like this.  Same principle applied in the Yankees clubhouse for decades.

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MMmmmm....so salty.

Mike did have a text addressing the coaches being critical of their players.

Essentially he said contrary to what one may think given the vitriol he has for Mike Babcock, he enjoyed playing for almost all of the coaches he played for, and most of those coaches ripped into him at some point.  He said the difference between those coaches and Babcock was that they:

a. did so when it was deserved,

b. they gave a s*** (presumably about him as a person and getting a better performance out of him), and

c. they went about it the right way.

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7 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

a. did so when it was deserved,

b. they gave a s*** (presumably about him as a person and getting a better performance out of him), and

c. they went about it the right way.

In other words, those coaches weren't assholes.  I've had bosses who were tough but fair, and I've had bosses who were complete assholes who didn't give a **** about those under them.  Those bosses in former category were vastly better to work for.

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Not saying Franzen's condition had anything to do with Babcock.   But I am saying that it showed that he did sacrifice for his team and was a key for them winning and getting to the Cup Final in 2008 &2009.   As far as this taking nights off -  it's an 82 game schedule, they can't all be like Pat Verbeek.   Franzen did take nights off in the regular season, but my gosh, look at his playoff numbers........the guy was great.   He only dropped off because the injuries were adding up.   

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More on Chelios and Babcock...

https://detroitsportsnation.com/former-detroit-red-wing-chris-chelios-admits-chugging-beers-benched-mike-babcock/apowell/detroit-red-wings-news/12/04/2019/214280/

 

Chelios: He tried to healthy scratched me in the outdoor game in Wrigley Field against Chicago because he knew it was my hometown. Just things that were so unnecessary.

Whitney: When you say he tried to scratch you and what did you say? like no chance?

 

Chelios: Oh well trust me I will say….Kenny Holland and Jim Nill for three days argued with him. So what Babs ended up doing was he suited up 7 D for the first time ever, first and last time. He suited up 7 D, put Anders Lilja in the lineup. And played me opening shift and then didn’t play me another shift the rest of the game. That was his way of, you know, showing Kenny and now Jim Nill, he’s not going to be told what to do.

Again, and you know it’s funny. I’m sitting there. Second period and my two sons were about 40 feet, you know, sittin on the boards and they’re looking at me going, what’s going on?

And I look at them. I tip my glass like you know my cup, to get me a beer. So my two boys were handing me beers the whole game. And then McCrimmon tried to get me to go out there with a minute left to kill a penalty, I said not a chance.

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We always heard Babcock could be an ahole in the locker room ala John Tortarella, but given what Chelli and others have said in the past couple of weeks, the guy straight up sounds like a dirtbag. Benching Chelios, in his hometown during the Winter Classic, and doing so out of spite (or whatever was on his mind) is low. It's not like Babcock was actually concerned with Chelios costing them the game, given that he put Andreas Lilja out there.

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Tortorella's benching of Roberto Luongo in favor of Eddie Lack for an outdoor game in Vancouver is what brought Luongo's situation to a head once and for all and finished his time in Vancouver.

Anyways, I think there is a line and that some coaches have crossed it. But Marc Crawford calling Harold Druken a Newfie or calling Brent Sopel a ***** are not good examples of that!

https://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/nhl/vancouver-canucks/crow-a-no-go-zone-for-canucks-comment-as-their-ex-coachs-conduct-under-review

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Commodore, in a podcast, brought up that Mike Modano finished his career with 1499 games played.... and that Babcock was sitting him near the end of his final season.  But when I checked the game logs it doesn't look like it... he did have a few games near the end where he didn't play but I'm not sure it was a conspiracy.  He said he pushed Modano to make a stink over it but he didn't care.

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Taking it in, I guess here is where I am at.

A coach telling a player what he needs done or what he expects of the player is fine, if the feedback is critical, it should be as matter of fact as possible.  As have been noted, it is a highly competitive environment and being on point often is the difference between winning and losing.  No problem with that, and it can help people become better players.

When it becomes a persistent personal or character attack instead of an honest critique, the coach can go bag it.  It wouldn't be accepted in the vast majority of workplaces and those where it is currently acceptable are diminishing by the day.  Plus there are no shortage of studies that show making people feel like **** about themselves as a form of motivation are at best short term gain, long term loss, oftentimes they are just a loss from the outset.

 I can accept it if a coaches loses his temper on a guy uncharacteristically and apologizes for it (the right way) -> doesn't happen again.  I know that can happen in a stressful environment, especially if the coach is around long enough.

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My TV may wish to file a restraining order against me given the language I've used when watching Wings games this seasons.

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4 hours ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Taking it in, I guess here is where I am at.

A coach telling a player what he needs done or what he expects of the player is fine, if the feedback is critical, it should be as matter of fact as possible.  As have been noted, it is a highly competitive environment and being on point often is the difference between winning and losing.  No problem with that, and it can help people become better players.

When it becomes a persistent personal or character attack instead of an honest critique, the coach can go bag it.  It wouldn't be accepted in the vast majority of workplaces and those where it is currently acceptable are diminishing by the day.  Plus there are no shortage of studies that show making people feel like **** about themselves as a form of motivation are at best short term gain, long term loss, oftentimes they are just a loss from the outset.

 I can accept it if a coaches loses his temper on a guy uncharacteristically and apologizes for it (the right way) -> doesn't happen again.  I know that can happen in a stressful environment, especially if the coach is around long enough.

well stated

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Darren McCarty has gone so far as to say that they won the cup in 2008 in spite of Babcock and lost it because of him in 2009.

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46 minutes ago, Lei Pong said:

Darren McCarty has gone so far as to say that they won the cup in 2008 in spite of Babcock and lost it because of him in 2009.

This is also a  serious charge against Holland if it's true that he kept a coach around for ten years that was impeding his team.

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I'm a little surprised Babcock has been taking this kind of stuff in the media considering the mind games Bowman used to play. That said, some of it sounds like whining on the players' part. With respect to Franzen, I don't know. His concussions really ****** him up. Babcock's treatment of him might not have been as extraordinary as he claims if you frame it in the context of a guy who's head was all messed up from taking hits to begin with. Any additional pressure applied by Babcock after that point could have just driven Franzen over the edge. Hard to say.

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1 hour ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

I suspect Bowman has avoided criticism because he hasn't coached in damn near 20 years.

I recognize that, I'm just saying, Bowman was a legendary mind game guy. He wouldn't do what these have accused Babcock of doing- relentless put downs, screaming, etc. but he was known to drive players insane with his mind games. 

It's a good thing babcock got such a ridiculous contract. It may take him some time to find another coaching job. 

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