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4/30 @7:10 Tampa Rays vs Detroit Tigers

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11 minutes ago, Casimir said:

Sure, but who are they going to be able to trade?

Some of the dead weight needs to stick around solely because the Tigers have to field a team and there is nobody more qualified to replace them. 

Martinez can go away.  This team is ill equipped to have a DH only.

Some of the bullpen arms..... there's more of the same junk in Toledo, so there isn't going to be much improvement there.  You can change for the sake of change, but it ain't gonna do nothin' for this season or the future, really.

Fair enough...sometimes I just want that "pound of flesh", there are a couple guys that I just want gone for the sake of sanity, like McCann, Vmart, and Greene for starters.  Replace them with who? Idk, but what is thier WAR good for?

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They will trade anyone who is tradable.  VMart will be gone at the end of the season.

Nobody hates McCann more than me.  That the Tigers frankly mis-read and mis-used him is mind blowing to me, but whatever, I can't wait until he is gone, if for no other reason I don't want to hear Jim Price wax about him.

But here's the thing.  If they don't have an improvement or reasonable facsimile for James, replacing him for the sake of replacing him is counter-productive.  Finding 1 WAR players is not as easy as many make it out to be.  There is a difference between losing 90 games and 110.

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2 hours ago, 1776 said:

So how is it Jones hasn’t learned by now that running in that situation was bad bad baseball? MLB is full of these bonehead actions. Youth is not an excuse. Crazy crap.

This is so widespread I wonder if there isn't something more at work than just stupid. Do you suppose that in the minors - low minors esp, players may get a message that  there is more emphasis on demonstrating skills that winning games so maybe they haven't done a good job of internalizing winning game strategy.

Or then again, maybe just stupid.

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3 hours ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Nobody hates McCann more than me.  That the Tigers frankly mis-read and mis-used him is mind blowing to me, but whatever, I can't wait until he is gone, if for no other reason I don't want to hear Jim Price wax about him.

OTOH, they have brought a good number of catchers into the system at all levels in recent years, none have panned out yet. I would guess they would have replaced him if they could, but there is no point in bad mouthing your own players while they are playing for you -  it's not like they are going to tell Price to start putting him down.  

 

EDIT: that's weird. I posted this from a Mac and the emoli I picked was a guy shrugging his shoulders. I just looked at it from a PC and the emoji rendered was an astrological male symbol. Weird.

 

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Fans have complained about lack of fundamentals for as long as there has been a game.  TOOTBLAN is nothing new, and I don't know as that player fundamentals are worse now than was the case in say 1985 or 1955 or whatever.

I do think the skill level has raised and wonder if the glaring mistakes look that much worse as a consequence.

EDIT: related to skill level increase, it stands to reason if the skill level is higher, more runners will be thrown out than was the case -> the risk to take an extra base has grown with no change in the reward, thus making the play more stupid.

I also think those bad habits were established long before they reached the majors, or before they were professionals, for that matter.  Bad habits exist because they are hard to break and are often rooted in childhood.  I suspect he was encouraged to be very aggressive on the bases growing up and this is simply a manifestation of that.  Speculation to be sure.

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5 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

OTOH, they have brought a good number of catchers into the system at all levels in recent years, none have panned out yet. I would guess they would have replaced him if they could, but there is no point in bad mouthing your own players while they are playing for you -  it's not like they are going to tell Price to start putting him down.  🤷‍♂️

 

I am not asking for Price to put him down.

And, yes, the fact those other catchers did not pan out illustrates the point that 1 WAR players don't grow on trees.

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When Jones took off the 6 guys in my section all groaned.... "really?"

I think it's just adrenaline.  You see an opening and your instincts tell you to go.  It's such a quick decision.  Things like that have to be something you don't think about because by the time you think it's too late.  Don't forget Ramon is new at 1B and that's where the coach comes in to remind him of things like that.... "remember, we're down 3.... only go if it's a passed ball."

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1 hour ago, Oblong said:

When Jones took off the 6 guys in my section all groaned.... "really?"

I think it's just adrenaline.  You see an opening and your instincts tell you to go.  It's such a quick decision.  Things like that have to be something you don't think about because by the time you think it's too late.  Don't forget Ramon is new at 1B and that's where the coach comes in to remind him of things like that.... "remember, we're down 3.... only go if it's a passed ball."

How long do you have to be playing baseball to know what Jones did is not correct? I would say 7th graders would understand this concept. Is Jones taking baserunning lessons from Nick?  

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Having coached 8th graders, I'd suggest relatively few truly understand why you don't steal down 3 runs in the last inning.

Most 8th graders don't really think the game, so to say.  They play, but relatively few really think through the implications of that sort of thing.

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6 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Having coached 8th graders, I'd suggest relatively few truly understand why you don't steal down 3 runs in the last inning.

Most 8th graders don't really think the game, so to say.  They play, but relatively few really think through the implications of that sort of thing.

You know you bring up a point.  I have heard it said that Nick Castellanos, for example, does not like to watch baseball.  He would rather pick up a video game in his offtime.  My feeling has always been that this penchant for playing video games rather than watching a game when not playing has stunted his baseball IQ.  I have always felt that way.  How many guys out there are like Nick:  Full of raw talent but no true lust for the game I'll call it?  

 

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3 hours ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

They will trade anyone who is tradable.  VMart will be gone at the end of the season.

Nobody hates McCann more than me.  That the Tigers frankly mis-read and mis-used him is mind blowing to me, but whatever, I can't wait until he is gone, if for no other reason I don't want to hear Jim Price wax about him.

But here's the thing.  If they don't have an improvement or reasonable facsimile for James, replacing him for the sake of replacing him is counter-productive.  Finding 1 WAR players is not as easy as many make it out to be.  There is a difference between losing 90 games and 110.

Well tbh, I haven't liked McCann since his Mudhen days;  The wife and I were holding hands walking down the concourse before a game, and here comes McCann in his Hen uni walking towards us (not sure what he was doing on the concourse), anyway he makes eye contact/stares at my wife, then nods at her and says "what's up?" as we walk by....lol, what a chotch;  I said out loud "******* seriously?", and he actually got a bit red-faced and scooted away a little faster.  If he was good it wouldn't bother me as much, **** I might be honored that he "sup'd?" my wife...haaaa

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Knowing and executing are different things however.  If it weren't then there'd never be any boneheaded plays.  Players don't do stupid things on the field because they don't know any better.  It's also not because the manager didn't teach them as people suggest last year when I think it was Tyler Collins who 'forgot' to call for the ball as the CFer.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

We are onto something here...

Lol, yeah...but that doesn't excuse his poor play.  I mean Greene and Vmart never hit on my wife...that I'm aware of.

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21 minutes ago, Dtrain72 said:

Well tbh, I haven't liked McCann since his Mudhen days;  The wife and I were holding hands walking down the concourse before a game, and here comes McCann in his Hen uni walking towards us (not sure what he was doing on the concourse), anyway he makes eye contact/stares at my wife, then nods at her and says "what's up?" as we walk by....lol, what a chotch;  I said out loud "******* seriously?", and he actually got a bit red-faced and scooted away a little faster.  If he was good it wouldn't bother me as much, **** I might be honored that he "sup'd?" my wife...haaaa

LOL!  This is starting to sound a little less about baseball....I guess I would feel a little worse if he had stared at you instead of your lovely wife.  

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If a player hit on my wife with me standing right there, my guess is we would have a laugh about it later (we being me and her - there would be no devil's 3-way).

But setting that aside, James should have always just been the RH portion of a platoon.  And what was particularly interesting / aggravating to me is they already had the LH portion of the platoon in house in the form of Alex Avila.  The solution was staring them in the face.

But they soured on Alex (to be fair, Alex had concussion issues that probably influenced the thing a lot more than I suggest) and James was the shiny new toy with a great arm, and they decided James was their catcher for the future and made him the starting catcher.

And here we are 4 years later or whatever, and James still can't hit RHP.

And I mean, he has ***never*** hit RHP - in the majors or minors (career MLB OPS is sub-0.600) and you can't be a highly effective starter if you can't hit RHP because 75% of the AB come against RHP.  It really is that clear cut and simple.

I think they (the Tigers) get it now, but the fact that this shortcoming seemingly hadn't been identified sooner is bananas to me, again, especially considering they had Avila who could hit RHP (and couldn't hit LHP).  It isn't like looking at platoon splits is some radical cutting edge analysis technique.  John McGraw would have gotten it.

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28 minutes ago, Dtrain72 said:

Well tbh, I haven't liked McCann since his Mudhen days;  The wife and I were holding hands walking down the concourse before a game, and here comes McCann in his Hen uni walking towards us (not sure what he was doing on the concourse), anyway he makes eye contact/stares at my wife, then nods at her and says "what's up?" as we walk by....lol, what a chotch;  I said out loud "******* seriously?", and he actually got a bit red-faced and scooted away a little faster.  If he was good it wouldn't bother me as much, **** I might be honored that he "sup'd?" my wife...haaaa

Good thing for you it wasn't Adduci.  

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We do laugh about...even laughed when it happened because he scampered away.   It's really not that big of deal, I don't personally hate the guy (and my wife did look quite striking that day...).

99% of my dislike is purely sports related.

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2 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

Good thing for you it wasn't Adduci.  

I actually thought about that other day when the radio guys were talking about Aducci, haaa.

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29 minutes ago, Oblong said:

Knowing and executing are different things however.  If it weren't then there'd never be any boneheaded plays.  Players don't do stupid things on the field because they don't know any better.  It's also not because the manager didn't teach them as people suggest last year when I think it was Tyler Collins who 'forgot' to call for the ball as the CFer.

 

 

I remember that.  I feel a little bad laughing about it then, but it is a little funny to think the manager should instill the extreme basics of baseball on professional players.  I cannot remember who it was that suggested it, but it was a little funny.

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1 hour ago, NickCantCatch said:

You know you bring up a point.  I have heard it said that Nick Castellanos, for example, does not like to watch baseball.  He would rather pick up a video game in his offtime.  My feeling has always been that this penchant for playing video games rather than watching a game when not playing has stunted his baseball IQ.  I have always felt that way.  How many guys out there are like Nick:  Full of raw talent but no true lust for the game I'll call it?  

I am not a fan of the 'kids these days' criticisms, because I think they are > 95% BS, but as it pertains to sports, one big difference I see is that when I was a boy (35 years ago), we (meaning I and my buddies) played a lot more pick-up and organic baseball with our friends (rather than formal ball games). 

Stuff like rundown, 500, 5 v. 5 where you had to hit to the right side or you were out, etc.  My sons had none of that.

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31 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

If a player hit on my wife with me standing right there, my guess is we would have a laugh about it later (we being me and her - there would be no devil's 3-way).

But setting that aside, James should have always just been the RH portion of a platoon.  And what was particularly interesting / aggravating to me is they already had the LH portion of the platoon in house in the form of Alex Avila.  The solution was staring them in the face.

But they soured on Alex (to be fair, Alex had concussion issues that probably influenced the thing a lot more than I suggest) and James was the shiny new toy with a great arm, and they decided James was their catcher for the future and made him the starting catcher.

And here we are 4 years later or whatever, and James still can't hit RHP.

He has never hit RHP - in the majors or minors (career MLB OPS is sub-0.600) and you can't be a highly effective starter if you can't hit RHP because 75% of the AB come against RHP.  It really is that clear cut and simple.

I think they (the Tigers) get it now, but the fact that this shortcoming seemingly hadn't been identified sooner is bananas to me, again, especially considering they had Avila who could hit RHP (and couldn't hit LHP).  It isn't like looking at platoon splits is some radical cutting edge analysis technique.

Certainly the concussion issues were big, but they have largely passed and certainly had by his second tour last year. I think you could almost say more that they mishandled Alex Avila as much as McCann. McCann as an everyday player was the result. I guess it's hard to know all the subtexts with Alex. It seems Al Avila saw Alex playing for him as a much bigger issue that I think it ever was with anyone else in Detroit - unless maybe Dombrowski didn't like it either.  I also wonder to what degree the Tigers' old school mentality couldn't bring itself to appreciate a hitter who basically only offered an OBP tool, as valuable as that is in reality.

All that said, he doesn't have many PA with Arizona this season. 

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