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DumberAndLeaner

Gardenhire >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ausmus

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21 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

Probably.  It makes sense that they should all start off in the minors.  Trammell was another example, although I don't think he was cut out for managing anyway.  

I do not really recall the circumstances with him becoming the coach.  I know it was a big PR move to try and sell tickets, but it is pretty evident that Trammel just not that into managing a team.

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6 hours ago, DumberAndLeaner said:

https://www.amazon.com/Wild-High-Tight-Death-Martin/dp/0312105754

 

 

Just look at the delta in team records immediately before and after hiring him.

A good read, even if one doesn't like Billy.   His talent for seizing disparate elements and forging a team mindset are unmatched.

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=beyond+batting+average

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2 hours ago, John_Brian_K said:

I do not really recall the circumstances with him becoming the coach.  I know it was a big PR move to try and sell tickets, but it is pretty evident that Trammel just not that into managing a team.

It was all those hundreds of hours of Trammell  standing next to Sparky in the dugout that drove an assumption Sparky was grooming him to be a manager, and Sparky was. Trammell had everything he needed to be a good manager except for one thing - the ability to be a hard azzed SOB, without which any manager will eventually be run over by his team, which Trammell was. And who knows, if Leyland had not become available Trammell might have righted the ship himself. But it's water under the bridge - Tram basically decided he didn't need it and went off to Arizona happy to play #2 to Gibson.

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2 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

It was all those hundreds of hours of Trammell  standing next to Sparky in the dugout that drove an assumption Sparky was grooming him to be a manager, and Sparky was. Trammell had everything he needed to be a good manager except for one thing - the ability to be a hard azzed SOB, without which any manager will eventually be run over by his team, which Trammell was.

You know what else Trammell didn't have that Sparky did?    TALENT

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9 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

It was all those hundreds of hours of Trammell  standing next to Sparky in the dugout that drove an assumption Sparky was grooming him to be a manager, and Sparky was. Trammell had everything he needed to be a good manager except for one thing - the ability to be a hard azzed SOB, without which any manager will eventually be run over by his team, which Trammell was. And who knows, if Leyland had not become available Trammell might have righted the ship himself. But it's water under the bridge - Tram basically decided he didn't need it and went off to Arizona happy to play #2 to Gibson.

Anderson said that he hoped Trammell wouldn't get into managing because he was too "nice".  

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8 minutes ago, roarintiger1 said:

You know what else Trammell didn't have that Sparky did?    TALENT

Talent helps.  Doesn't it?  

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31 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

Talent helps.  Doesn't it?  

If you want to generalize, sure.

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36 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Trammell had more talent to play the game.

Sparky had more talent to manage players.

And Sparky had Trammell.  Trammell didn't have Trammell.  

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16 hours ago, cruzer1 said:

Then how do you quantify it?

 

Well (re Billy Martin managing) if you're George Brett, you might quantify it at 18 (inches) or if you're Hal McRae the number 8 (warmup tosses), or if You're George Steinbrenner the number 5  might seem special.O.o

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16 hours ago, tiger337 said:

And Sparky had Trammell.  Trammell didn't have Trammell.  

excellent point

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16 hours ago, tiger337 said:

And Sparky had Trammell.  Trammell didn't have Trammell.  

Didn't Trammell have Hiram Bocachica?

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54 minutes ago, Casimir said:

Didn't Trammell have Hiram Bocachica?

Excellent point.

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1 hour ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Players have up or down years all of the time with all managers.

You are missing the point:

Quote

"Later, Yankee starter Dock Ellis would say, "I saw Billy win five games the year I was there. He won five f---ing games just intimidating the umpires. Where they owed him a call. Even if the ball was down the ****, they called it a ball, and on the next pitch our hitter would hit a home run, and we'd win the game."

 

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If only Alan Trammell the manager had Alan Trammell the player, his managerial shortcomings would have not come to the fore.

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11 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Ahh.  Probably helps if I read links.

If Dock Ellis said it, it must be true.

Even if Dock Ellis didn't say it, its on the internet.

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51 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Ahh.  Probably helps if I read links.

If Dock Ellis said it, it must be true.

Never said it was a good point, just that you missed it!

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1 hour ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

If only Alan Trammell the manager had Alan Trammell the player, his managerial shortcomings would have not come to the fore.

Tram probably wasn't cut out for handing out clubhouse discipline but he also had fallen into the trap of bullpen by number ( or maybe initial?). Who can forget the wonders of FUP?  Of course if he learned everything he knew from Sparky that was probably his mistake. He should have spent more time with Roger Craig if he ever planned to manage a pitching staff. Once Craig went off to become a manager, I don't think Sparky ever had another pitching staff that distinguished itself.

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Trammell was not helped by the talent he had.  No argument.

Alan lost his team, in large part, because he lost Ivan Rodriguez, and the players sided with Pudge.

 Leyland never lost Ivan as far as I know.  I don't think Johnny Oates lost him, but never followed the Rangers.

Did Sparky ever lose a team?   The year he left mid-season in the late 80's, maybe?

 

 

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5 hours ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

 

If Dock Ellis said it, it must be true.

I think Dock Ellis is no less reliable a source than Dave Cameron, given the context. 

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4 hours ago, tiger337 said:

Never said it was a good point, just that you missed it!

I wasn't trying to suggest you thought it a good point.

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