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Motor City Sonics

Bunting to beat the shift. Why is that wrong?

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I am sure you guys have followed the story between the Twins and Orioles.

 

The Twins had a 7-0 lead and Jose Berrios was pitching a one-hitter.     Chance Sisco came up for the Orioles and the Twins shifted him to the right side.   So he laid a bunt down the third baseline.   The Twins lost their **** over it.    Especially Berrios and Brian Dozier.      

Why is what he did bad?   His job is to get on base, not placate the Twins.    If you are going to shift someone and leave half the field open, why not take advantage.    I could understand if it was a no-hitter, but this was not?     I understand Al Avila doesn't like bunting for a hit to beat the shift.   I can understand that for Victor Martinez, but what if it was Mike Mahtook or Dixon Machado or JaCoby Jones?    I want the guys on my team to try to get on base by any means...........I hate this shift crap and if teams keep doing it - make them pay for it !    I don't want any Tiger to ever give an AB away (no-hitters being the exception). 

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Dozier is in the wrong.  The batter is supposed to get on base.  He is supposed to use whatever advantage he can.  If the defense leaves the left side open, hit to that side.  If that means bunt, then bunt.  If he check swung and the effect was the same, so what.  If he swung full and it squibbed off of the top of the bat, so what.

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19 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

I am sure you guys have followed the story between the Twins and Orioles.

 

The Twins had a 7-0 lead and Jose Berrios was pitching a one-hitter.     Chance Sisco came up for the Orioles and the Twins shifted him to the right side.   So he laid a bunt down the third baseline.   The Twins lost their **** over it.    Especially Berrios and Brian Dozier.      

Why is what he did bad?   His job is to get on base, not placate the Twins.    If you are going to shift someone and leave half the field open, why not take advantage.    I could understand if it was a no-hitter, but this was not?     I understand Al Avila doesn't like bunting for a hit to beat the shift.   I can understand that for Victor Martinez, but what if it was Mike Mahtook or Dixon Machado or JaCoby Jones?    I want the guys on my team to try to get on base by any means...........I hate this shift crap and if teams keep doing it - make them pay for it !    I don't want any Tiger to ever give an AB away (no-hitters being the exception). 

If you have a player with a decent chance to put it in the seats, let him go ahead and swing into the shift, but even a serious HR hitter only has about a 7% chance of hitting a HR. If you can't or won't hit better than .070 shooting/bunting/checking the ball into an open infield, I guess you deserve to lose.

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Even if it is a no-hitter, so what? You play the game to have your team win and a base hit can be the start of a rally. Screw your no-no. No competitor should ever give up an at-bat to be part of "history" that everyone will forget in a week.

And I'll say the same thing no matter which team is involved.

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It is not wrong.  At least not IMO.  Didn't someone do that to JV once?  I do not think it worked, but plenty of people were up in arms about it IIRC.  Even when it happens to my guy I see nothing wrong with it.  You MAY get into some scenario where it looks bad...like you are down 15-0 the pitcher is throwing a no no and there are 2 outs in the 9th...that would look bad and I would have a hard time defending it, but I would not rail on the guy for doing it.  I would defend him either, but I think in the MAJORITY of these situations the hitter is in the right...like 90%+ of the time.

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1 hour ago, John_Brian_K said:

It is not wrong.  At least not IMO.  Didn't someone do that to JV once?  I do not think it worked, but plenty of people were up in arms about it IIRC.  Even when it happens to my guy I see nothing wrong with it.  You MAY get into some scenario where it looks bad...like you are down 15-0 the pitcher is throwing a no no and there are 2 outs in the 9th...that would look bad and I would have a hard time defending it, but I would not rail on the guy for doing it.  I would defend him either, but I think in the MAJORITY of these situations the hitter is in the right...like 90%+ of the time.

I remember Jason Donald's play during Gallaraga's imprefect game and him reacting to it by putting his hands on his head: not because he felt bad for chugging down the line to beat the throw but because he knew that Joyce blew the call. He's said as much in interviews since the incident.

If he beat it out honestly, good for him. That's his job.

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I would expect a professional to do everything in his power and inside of the rules to maximize his chances for winning.

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1 hour ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

I would expect a professional to do everything in his power and inside of the rules to maximize his chances for winning.

Not to mention, that any no-hitter should really get an asterisk in the record book of the other team wasn't trying 100% to break it up. You didn't succeed in dominating the opposition if the opposition wasn't giving 100%.

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Related to that thought, Tommy Bridges lost his perfect game some 80 years ago when the Senators pinch hit for their pitcher with two outs in the ninth, and the pinch hitter subsequently singled.

The media tried to make a story about it, like the Senators did Tommy wrong / broke the unwritten rules by pinch hitting with two outs in the ninth, but Tommy would have none of it.  He said he didn't want a perfect game if the opposition rolled over.  He wanted them to give their best against him.

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2 hours ago, Biff Mayhem said:

I remember Jason Donald's play during Gallaraga's imprefect game and him reacting to it by putting his hands on his head: not because he felt bad for chugging down the line to beat the throw but because he knew that Joyce blew the call. He's said as much in interviews since the incident.

If he beat it out honestly, good for him. That's his job.

Agreed.  I recall the whole thing very well.  And recall seeing him put his hands on his head.  Like you said it was not because he hustled, but because he knew JJ blew it.

Honestly, a lot of people mentioned this at the time it happened, no one is going to forget that game BECAUSE of the call.  It was basically perfect and the added wrinkle of the last blown call ingrains it in our memory even more.

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Honestly, nobody but Tiger fans would remember his perfect game had the call been made correctly.

The missed call helps ensure his game is remembered.

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Ron Gardernhire wouldn't allow his team to bunt break up a no hitter. 

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6 hours ago, John_Brian_K said:

Agreed.  I recall the whole thing very well.  And recall seeing him put his hands on his head.  Like you said it was not because he hustled, but because he knew JJ blew it.

Honestly, a lot of people mentioned this at the time it happened, no one is going to forget that game BECAUSE of the call.  It was basically perfect and the added wrinkle of the last blown call ingrains it in our memory even more.

Didn't he ask his first base coach if he should tell Jim Joyce he was out?   

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13 hours ago, Biff Mayhem said:

Even if it is a no-hitter, so what? You play the game to have your team win and a base hit can be the start of a rally. Screw your no-no. No competitor should ever give up an at-bat to be part of "history" that everyone will forget in a week.

And I'll say the same thing no matter which team is involved.

If it's okay for a team to shift their defense to take advantage of a hitter's tendencies, why is it not okay for the hitter to change his tendencies in that situation? There is nothing worse than "You never bunt to break up a no-hitter!" guy

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11 hours ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Didn't he ask his first base coach if he should tell Jim Joyce he was out?   

I do not recall that.  I think they both just looked at each other and out of earshot of anyone else both said 'I was out'/'you were out'.

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11 hours ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Didn't he ask his first base coach if he should tell Jim Joyce he was out?   

https://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/morosi-jim-joyce-jason-donald-ended-armando-galarraga-near-perfect-game-a-year-ago-060211

“He beat me,” Donald said over the telephone Wednesday. “He had the angle. The play happened right in front of me. I knew I was out immediately.”

Except, of course, he wasn’t. Donald remembers waiting for Joyce to pump his fist — and the feeling of disbelief when he didn’t. He remembers hearing the fans go bonkers. He remembers Tigers manager Jim Leyland arguing with Joyce. He remembers staying very quiet.

Finally, as Donald walked back to the bag, Indians first base coach Sandy Alomar Jr. spoke up.

“You were out, bro,” he said.

“I know I was,” Donald replied.

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I think the Twins were being Bush when they shifted someone with a 7-0 lead.      Fine, fellas, you do that all day, and if I am the other team, I will tell my non-power hitters to bunt to the open spot all day.   You wanna play that game, we can play.   It's about getting on base, doesn't matter if its by hit, bunt, error or passed ball.    Never quit.  Never give up an AB.  Ever.  

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43 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

I think the Twins were being Bush when they shifted someone with a 7-0 lead.

I wouldn't say that is bush but it is certainly the effort put forth to preserve the no-no. Why would the competition be expected to just lie down?

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It is the opposite of bush.  The Twins were doing what they thought increased their odds the most, and the batter did likewise.

I have no issue with the actions of either.

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51 minutes ago, Biff Mayhem said:

I wouldn't say that is bush but it is certainly the effort put forth to preserve the no-no. Why would the competition be expected to just lie down?

It wasn't a no-no.  It was just a shutout.  

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17 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

It wasn't a no-no.  It was just a shutout.  

Either way, eff them.

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I don't care if it is a run of the mill 5-4 game of no historical importance or a 22-0 game in which a pitcher or hitter is attempting to achieve something truly historically significant, both teams should be playing to win and taking steps to maximize their odds in the short and long term.

The pitcher nor the hitter 'owes' anything to the other.

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Would it be "bush" for a batter, in the 9th inning of a no-hitter, to square around to bunt only to pull it back and drive one past the in-charging 3rd baseman? "Unwritten rules" are almost always stupid.

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