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MAROTH4MVP

Detroit Lions 2018 Free Agency

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10 hours ago, Buddha said:

not really.

the pats defense doesnt have a lot of talent on it anymore, especially up front.  you live by the "we can turn anyone into a good player and win, even kyle van noy" philosophy, you die by the "we can turn anyone into a good player and win, even kyle van noy" philosophy.

that team lives off its historically great offense.

Top 5 in points allowed, 7th in sacks, with their two high drafted rookie pass rushers and Hightower on IR. Hmmmm

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12 minutes ago, Nastradamus said:

Top 5 in points allowed, 7th in sacks, with their two high drafted rookie pass rushers and Hightower on IR. Hmmmm

dvoa ranks:

2017: 31

2016: 16

2015: 12

2014: 12

2013: 20

2012: 15

so they had one of the worst defenses in football last year and were never better than middle of the pack before then.

hmmmmmmm....

 

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1 hour ago, Buddha said:

dvoa ranks:

2017: 31

2016: 16

2015: 12

2014: 12

2013: 20

2012: 15

so they had one of the worst defenses in football last year and were never better than middle of the pack before then.

hmmmmmmm....

 

Yikes and we hired their defensive coordinator to be head coach.

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DVOA is great and all for certain aspects, I use it all the time. But when you end up 5th in points its no accident. They were 8th in the RZ for one. 

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59 minutes ago, Nastradamus said:

DVOA is great and all for certain aspects, I use it all the time. But when you end up 5th in points its no accident. They were 8th in the RZ for one. 

its no accident because they had the best offense in the league and good special teams.  they dont turn the ball over and they out their defense in advantageous positions.

the defense itself has never been great and at times has been really bad.

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The reason they had high DVOA's and low points allowed (within top 10, and often top 5) the past 6 years is because Belichek specifically relied on Patricia to outcoach the other team. Belichek has come out and stated that they did not have to put resources into the defense because of this. They employed a bend-but-don't-break philosophy specifically because of Patricia. High DVOA, low scoring, per plan.

Belichek and Patricia agreed on these elements concerning defense: excellent red zone D to prevent scores, resources not spent on defense but on offense, pass rushers too expensive so rely on Patricia schemes to generate pressure rather than spend $$$ on pass rushing. Don't be concerned with yardage, just with score prevention.

Having Brady certainly helps as you can outscore a defense. But Belichek specifically ham-strung the defense based on Patricia's capabilities, and redirected cap money to other areas of higher priority.

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they dont have the talent anymore to stop teams from moving the ball.  thats the problem.  

having brady doesnt just mean you can outscore the competition, it means you dont turn the ball over.  having good special teams means you can make the othet team have poor field position.  

the pats defense was better when they had healthy playmakers on defense.  EVERY defense is better with healthy playmakers.

far be it for me to criticize bill bellicheck, but i do think they got rid of some guys they shouldnt get rid of and thats hurt their defense.  and they havent replaced them with exceptionally talented guys, but rather with washed up players (like james harrison) or never-had-it players (like kyle van noy).

they need the players they get from dealimg the garroppolos and the jones' of the world to turn out.  and so far they havent.

i give patricia credit for getting that rag tag group of players into any sort of unit.

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Just so I'm clear...

Was there any kind of criticism in there (or further above) for Patricia? Or is it all criticism of their lost defensive talent by letting them walk...? I didn't quite remember all that had been said previously; and I see you gave some credit to Patricia for making the best out of the players he had to work with... My own perspective is that Patricia is deserving of major kudos for turning mostly lemons into lemonade through scheme and film/ opponent study. 

If you're saying what I think you are saying, I'm on board.

I don't want to follow the Pats example. I'd like talented players on defense. Acquired through draft/ FA/ trades. Not mediocrities that Patricia is forced into turning them into overachievers. Nothing wrong with overachievers, but I also want talent.

Strong enough O-Line to protect Stafford and open up running lanes (not ONE or the other... both). And the offense will take care of itself.

And talent on D to see what Patricia can do with that...

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5 hours ago, 84 Lives!!! said:

Just so I'm clear...

Was there any kind of criticism in there (or further above) for Patricia? Or is it all criticism of their lost defensive talent by letting them walk...? I didn't quite remember all that had been said previously; and I see you gave some credit to Patricia for making the best out of the players he had to work with... My own perspective is that Patricia is deserving of major kudos for turning mostly lemons into lemonade through scheme and film/ opponent study. 

If you're saying what I think you are saying, I'm on board.

I don't want to follow the Pats example. I'd like talented players on defense. Acquired through draft/ FA/ trades. Not mediocrities that Patricia is forced into turning them into overachievers. Nothing wrong with overachievers, but I also want talent.

Strong enough O-Line to protect Stafford and open up running lanes (not ONE or the other... both). And the offense will take care of itself.

And talent on D to see what Patricia can do with that...

i wasnt criticizing patricia at all, i was criricizing bellicheck for letting talent walk out the door without replacing it.

i think patricia had very little talent his last few years with the pats.  especially last year.

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18 hours ago, Buddha said:

i wasnt criticizing patricia at all, i was criricizing bellicheck for letting talent walk out the door without replacing it.

i think patricia had very little talent his last few years with the pats.  especially last year.

That's exactly as how I understand it.

Memo to Quinn and Patricia (I think they already know this): Draft defensive playmakers; and spend some $$$ on defense. Don't neglect it just because we have Patricia.

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On 2/24/2018 at 6:56 PM, 84 Lives!!! said:

That's exactly as how I understand it.

Memo to Quinn and Patricia (I think they already know this): Draft defensive play makers; and spend some $$$ on defense. Don't neglect it just because we have Patricia.

Yes. On the plus side there is a lot of room for improvement on the defense. Using players in the right way, would help immensely.

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31 minutes ago, Buddha said:

obvious decision.

Not really, I disagree with the decision. Hopefully Ansah proves me wrong. The cap hit was almost 17 million last year for a DE. That is a lot of money and cap space for a guy who will only be healthy and effective a handful of games. That cap space could have been used to fill other holes, extend players, etc. It really limits the Lions flexibility.

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1 hour ago, MAROTH4MVP said:

Not really, I disagree with the decision. Hopefully Ansah proves me wrong. The cap hit was almost 17 million last year for a DE. That is a lot of money and cap space for a guy who will only be healthy and effective a handful of games. That cap space could have been used to fill other holes, extend players, etc. It really limits the Lions flexibility.

what's a better option on the market for an end?  if lawrence is franchised there isnt a better option.  its a really weak market for ends this year.

yes, you can draft one (and they should).  but thats a move for the future more than next year.  if the lions can contend next year they need a motivated ansah PLUS another pass rusher (or two).

i have all the reservations you do.  he's never healthy.  he hasnt really produced without suh and fairley.  he is more of a run stuffer than a pass rusher.

that said, there is something to be said for his run stopping abilities and he does appear to have the physical traits to be able to get pressure.

i see this as the best option for this year.  if they can get him to agree to a reasonable extension, i can see how they might do that too to lessen the cap burden.  but i have more reservations about that considering all the things i noted before.

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1 hour ago, Buddha said:

what's a better option on the market for an end?  if lawrence is franchised there isnt a better option.  its a really weak market for ends this year.

yes, you can draft one (and they should).  but thats a move for the future more than next year.  if the lions can contend next year they need a motivated ansah PLUS another pass rusher (or two).

i have all the reservations you do.  he's never healthy.  he hasnt really produced without suh and fairley.  he is more of a run stuffer than a pass rusher.

that said, there is something to be said for his run stopping abilities and he does appear to have the physical traits to be able to get pressure.

i see this as the best option for this year.  if they can get him to agree to a reasonable extension, i can see how they might do that too to lessen the cap burden.  but i have more reservations about that considering all the things i noted before.

There is not a better option talent wise. But if you think he will have similar  productions to last year, which I do. His value just does not meet franchise tag requirements. I believe he has talent, but can not stay healthy. As a result his value plummets. Hyder hopefully going to be able to return, there are also some free agents that intrigue me, who while not great could match Ansah's production if he produces the way he has the past 2 season. Hayes, Crick, Clayborn, etc. I realize some of them also had injury histories but their contracts will be no where near 17.5 million a year.

You don't franchise run stuffing DE. William Hayes is a excellent run stuffer and could be had at a fraction of the cost. While I agree the FA pool is thin at DE, there is some talent and value to be had.

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54 minutes ago, MAROTH4MVP said:

There is not a better option talent wise. But if you think he will have similar  productions to last year, which I do. His value just does not meet franchise tag requirements. I believe he has talent, but can not stay healthy. As a result his value plummets. Hyder hopefully going to be able to return, there are also some free agents that intrigue me, who while not great could match Ansah's production if he produces the way he has the past 2 season. Hayes, Crick, Clayborn, etc. I realize some of them also had injury histories but their contracts will be no where near 17.5 million a year.

You don't franchise run stuffing DE. William Hayes is a excellent run stuffer and could be had at a fraction of the cost. While I agree the FA pool is thin at DE, there is some talent and value to be had.

ansah had a down year this year and outperformed all those guys.  also, the lions could still sign one of them if they feel hyder cant come back.

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16 minutes ago, Buddha said:

ansah had a down year this year and outperformed all those guys.  also, the lions could still sign one of them if they feel hyder cant come back.

He has had a down two years. Has not been healthy, can't stay healthy, injuries have vastly effected his production.

Season Week Description Status
2017 15 Ankle Questionable
2017 14 Ankle Questionable
2017 12 Back Questionable
2017 11 Back Out
2017 10 Back Doubtful
2017 9 Knee Questionable
2017 8 Knee Questionable
2017 6 Knee Questionable
2017 5 Knee Questionable
2017 4 Knee Questionable
2017 3 Knee Questionable
2017 2 Knee Questionable
2017 1 Knee Questionable
2016 15 Shoulder Questionable
2016 14 Ankle Questionable
2016 13 Ankle Questionable
2016 12 Ankle Questionable
2016 11 Ankle Questionable
2016 9 Ankle Questionable
2016 7 Ankle Questionable
2016 6 Ankle Questionable
2016 5 Ankle Out
2016 4 Ankle Out
2016 3 Ankle Out
2016 2 Shoulder Questionable

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6 minutes ago, MAROTH4MVP said:

He has had a down two years. Has not been healthy, can't stay healthy, injuries have vastly effected his production.

Season Week Description Status
2017 15 Ankle Questionable
2017 14 Ankle Questionable
2017 12 Back Questionable
2017 11 Back Out
2017 10 Back Doubtful
2017 9 Knee Questionable
2017 8 Knee Questionable
2017 6 Knee Questionable
2017 5 Knee Questionable
2017 4 Knee Questionable
2017 3 Knee Questionable
2017 2 Knee Questionable
2017 1 Knee Questionable
2016 15 Shoulder Questionable
2016 14 Ankle Questionable
2016 13 Ankle Questionable
2016 12 Ankle Questionable
2016 11 Ankle Questionable
2016 9 Ankle Questionable
2016 7 Ankle Questionable
2016 6 Ankle Questionable
2016 5 Ankle Out
2016 4 Ankle Out
2016 3 Ankle Out
2016 2 Shoulder Questionable

amd he still outperformed all the guys you mentioned.

because he is the best option in a very thin market.

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17 minutes ago, Buddha said:

he still outperformed all the guys you mentioned.

because he is the best option in a very thin market.

Doesn't mean he should be franchised.  He did not outperform Hayes or Crick in 2016.

9 of 12 Ansah sacks came in 3 games last year.

                           
                           

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39 minutes ago, MAROTH4MVP said:

Doesn't mean he should be franchised.  He did not outperform Hayes or Crick in 2016.

9 of 12 Ansah sacks came in 3 games last year.

                           
                           

2017 was last year.  and he outperformed all of them.

i dont even like ansah and i have a lot of reservations about him, but he has flashed more talent than those bums you mentioned above.  ansah had 9 sacks in 3 games?  yup.  against crap opposition.  claybourne had SIX IN ONE GAME.  and did nothing the rest of the year.  and he's the next best option.

look man, this is a product of the market.  if you dont franchise him, other teams will be all over him and you'll be stuck with a crappy player on his place.  at least with ansah you have a history that he can be ok and sometimes good.  thats the best youve got right now.  maybe next year they can let him walk if they draft a good player thia year or the market is better.

but not this year in this market.  franchising him was a necessary evil.

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Absolutely needed to be done.

And one point on Maroth's worry about cap space:

We have plenty of it to fill all our needs. Franchising Ansah does not restrict us in any way.

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