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BECAUSE Not Caldwell, So Then Who?

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18 minutes ago, RedRamage said:

Maybe, maybe not.  Obviously it's easy for my to play arm chair OC, but I'd at least like to see them TRY play B.  It seemed we got nothing but huge servings of play A with just the very rare occasional play B thrown in.

You might be entirely right that play B would be as much as failure as play A, but at least, as a fan, I could say: Here's examples of JBC trying  to find a way to make it work.  Instead, I see examples of JBC trying to same thing that failed before.

Is it because he wouldn't try anything new?  Is it because Caldwell kept hammering: "We need to learn the basics before we try anything different!"?  Is it because JBC tried and just thew up his hands because the players just could execute anything?  That's what I wish I knew and what I hope a new HC would get to the bottom of before keeping or firing JBC.

How is try something new defined?

Surely they tried various plays throughout the season.

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7 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

How is try something new defined?

Surely they tried various plays throughout the season.

Well, obviously we're talking huge generalizations here... The Lions didn't run Play-A 100% or even 50% of the time.  What I'm saying is it seemed like the Lions, up the middle, way to often with poor results.  It was a common theme in the game threads I look through that we'd run-run then pass on 3rd and long.

I watch way too many runs up the middle that went for nothing.  I watched too many times that Abdullah would run into the one of his OL men.

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It doesn't matter who the coach is.  The Lions don't have the organizational culture needed to win, and won't as long as the Fords own them.

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Steve Wilks is another intriguing prospect. Have the Lions shown any interest in interviewing him?

 

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32 minutes ago, RedRamage said:

Well, obviously we're talking huge generalizations here... The Lions didn't run Play-A 100% or even 50% of the time.  What I'm saying is it seemed like the Lions, up the middle, way to often with poor results.  It was a common theme in the game threads I look through that we'd run-run then pass on 3rd and long.

I watch way too many runs up the middle that went for nothing.  I watched too many times that Abdullah would run into the one of his OL men.

So something new is not running the ball up the middle?

I want to understand the argument because I am not following it to be honest.

I guess I don't understand how to evaluate repetitiveness of plays against other teams.

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I think they will let Joe Dahl have the inside track at LG next year, let Swanson walk, and shift Glasgow to C. I doubt Quinn will invest anything significant in the OL, maybe a 4th round pick or later. He was clearly upset that Prince couldn’t do anything with all the OL Investments Quinn made. And he saw what he missed out on by passing over Kamara, Hunt, and Cook. Probably a DT or DE in Round 1 and a RB in Round 2.

Although apparently after giving Dahl the game ball after his first start, PFF hated his week 17 performance.

According to PFF, Dahl was “a complete liability in the run game.” Even though he only allowed one quarterback pressure all game, he still earned a team-low 36.5 overall grade.


http:// https://www.prideofdetroit.com/2018/1/2/16840246/4-detroit-lions-finish-top-10-pro-football-focus-grades-2017

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39 minutes ago, number20 said:

Steve Wilks is another intriguing prospect. Have the Lions shown any interest in interviewing him?

 

I believe Matt Patricia, Josh McDaniels, Mike Vrabel, Pat Shurmur and Steve Wilks are the coaching candidates slated to be interviewed as of now.

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28 minutes ago, Euphdude said:

It doesn't matter who the coach is.  The Lions don't have the organizational culture needed to win, and won't as long as the Fords own them.

well, if by that you mean there is no-one in the Ford family capable of picking a competent GM to run the football operation - or IOW, Martha's choice of Quinn has been as bad as any of WCF's choices, that is a argument you could make. But I would normally think of the teams 'organizational' culture as originating with the team hired management rather than ownership. If they luck into a good GM signing, I think they can haveh good organizational culture even it ownership isn't  supplying it.

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23 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

So something new is not running the ball up the middle?

I want to understand the argument because I am not following it so far.

As a fan watching the Lions this year, the offense felt predictable and ineffective generally speaking.  I think most other fans would agree with this assessment.  If you don't think the offense was this way, then I'd say you're in the minority, but again that's my opinion, I could be wrong.

Without getting into specific counts of the times they did x or y or z (because, frankly, I don't feel like looking up every play they ran), I going to say that they felt predictable.  I know at least some others feel the same way, and I saw articles where Caldwell and JBC tried to refute the idea that they were predictable which means at least some media people felt that way as well.

If your predictable and effective... well then, I don't care if you're predictable or not.  If you can impose your will and get the job done, fine... no problem.  But if you're predictable and ineffective than I'd want a coach to at least TRY and shake things up and do stuff differently.  The team might still be unable to get the job done a lot (unpredictable and ineffective) but at least I'd see an attempt to try and solve the problem.

I didn't see much of any attempt to be unpredictable for much of the season.

Yes this is a broad generalization, yes this is my opinion (though not just my opinion), and yes there's probably dozens of examples where the Lions used a bit of trickery or mis-direction.  But I'm quite confident there are dozens x dozens of times of them running right up the gut (for example) and getting no where, then trying to do the same things a play or two later.

 

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My guess is fans of almost all football teams complain their offense is predictable.

I imagine it is right up there with not getting runners in from 3rd and using the wrong reliever for baseball.

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2 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

well, if by that you mean there is no-one in the Ford family capable of picking a competent GM to run the football operation - or IOW, Martha's choice of Quinn has been as bad as any of WCF's choices, that is a argument you could make. But I would normally think of the teams 'organizational' culture as originating with the team hired management rather than ownership. If they luck into a good GM signing, I think they can haveh good organizational culture even it ownership isn't  supplying it.

I think there's generally two ways an owner influences a team (granted, there are plenty of smaller things and/or Dan Snyder examples, but generally speaking...): 1. Hiring the leadership and 2. Firing the leadership.

One could argue that WCF was never good at finding the right people to run his team, and stayed loyal to the wrong people way to long.  One could argue that this loyalty especially promoted an idea of: "Just be pretty good and that's good enough."

I think it remains to be seen with Martha and Wood and Quinn.

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My guess is fans of almost all football teams complain their offense is predictable.
I imagine it is right up there with not getting runners in from 3rd and using the wrong reliever for baseball.

Most fans didn’t have the 32nd ranked rushing offense.

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True, but is that because the offense was predictable or was it due to not having a good run blocking offensive line or an above average running back?

I can't claim to have the answer, but I suspect it was much more the latter than the former.

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The Lions had the second fewest rushing attempts in the NFL so I guess they were predictable that they would be passing more often than not.

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My gut says Austin just a Rooney check off. I don't think Quinn can fire Caldwell for not winning big games and turn around and hire a member of his staff

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My gut says Austin just a Rooney check off. I don't think Quinn can fire Caldwell for not winning big games and turn around and hire a member of his staff
Steve Wilks is being interviewed and is black.

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The Fords don't do anything anymore. Quinn has complete autonomy. Its not like they are cheap with money- he'll have all the resources he needs. So, if you don't think the Lions can win, its mostly an assessment on Quinn.

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14 minutes ago, Scottwood said:

The Fords don't do anything anymore. Quinn has complete autonomy. Its not like they are cheap with money- he'll have all the resources he needs. So, if you don't think the Lions can win, its mostly an assessment on Quinn.

With Caldwell's firing and Martha's pre-game hug and post-game press release, I'm also feeling this is the case.  If true, that would be great, even if Quinn doesn't work out.

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3 hours ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

My guess is fans of almost all football teams complain their offense is predictable.

I imagine it is right up there with not getting runners in from 3rd and using the wrong reliever for baseball.

Pretty much.  Predictable offenses have as much to do with bad defense, bad pass blocking, bad run blocking, etc as the actual play calling.

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3 hours ago, Euphdude said:

It doesn't matter who the coach is.  The Lions don't have the organizational culture needed to win, and won't as long as the Fords own them.

It's an interesting question.  I always have believed that in pro sports that ownership is the X factor....you don't want them interfering and screwing things up, but I suspect that it's also far too simplistic to say "the owner should just stay out of it and let the football/baseball/hockey guys run things." 

At minimum, the owner helps to create/support a winning culture by being visible/engaged/supportive and by holding the GM accountable, and that requires at least **some** sports decision-making smarts.  Maybe Martha has that, maybe not?  Impossible to say so far.  But so far, I am glad that she replaced Mayhew with Quinn, and I am glad that she didn't interfere to retain Caldwell.

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1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said:

The Lions had the second fewest rushing attempts in the NFL so I guess they were predictable that they would be passing more often than not.

Not that its a measure of predictability but, I'd argue they still ran the ball too much. They were also last in yds/attempt, and 30 in run DVOA. 

I think predictability goes deeper than run vs throw, and you could throw 90% of plays and still be unpredictable. I'm not an expert in breaking down film, so I can't really comment on predictability, but if an announcer (who lets face it, often times aren't the most knowledgeable) can read our plays, I'd guess most NFL coordinators can too. 

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I don't think the Lions had the personnel to be a good running team or even average.  I do think they have the personnel to have a top 5 passing offense in the league.

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Top 5 Ranking for the Day   (5 most likely, not 5 favorites)

1. Matt Patricia

2. Mike Vrabel

3. Pat Shurmur

4. Steve Wilks

5. Frank Reich

 

I am lopping off Josh McDaniels because I think he's a shoo-in for Indy.  

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7 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

For all this talk about Cooter and the offense, the Lions had the 7th highest PPG in the NFL and scored 400+ points for only the 3rd time in franchise history. Stafford has gotten better each year under JBC. Atlanta's offense took a step back when they changed offensive coordinators. I'm not sure I want to put Stafford through another system when he has openly advocated for keeping JBC. Get a new OL coach and some sort of RB coordinator and maybe upgrade the personnel at RB. 

This seems reasonable.

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