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BECAUSE Not Caldwell, So Then Who?

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8 hours ago, Jason_R said:


Sure. I’ll get right on it.

Until then, the numbers will have to do.

It's a team sport

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8 hours ago, 84 Lives!!! said:

He hasn't proven that on the field yet...

He has when he's gotten some run, like the end of '16. Both are fringey, though.

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22 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

In hindsight trading Cutler was the better move if Denver had done anything with the picks. There was no way to have guessed that at 25, playing only two full seasons in the NFL, and coming off a pro bowl season, that Cutler had peaked. There was a reason Chicago gave up multiple picks. I seem to recall there was a deal in place to send Cutler to Detroit. He was a young and talented QB.

Cutler never demanded a trade with Mike Shanahan and never demanded a trade in Chicago. I haven't even gotten into the fact that Mike Nolan hated McDaniels and quit. He traded Peyton Hillis and a draft pick for Brady Quinn, and even Ton Scheffler didn't like him. Don't forget his peers don't even respect him like Todd Haley. I guess everyone else is the cancer? Even if Cutler and Marshall are cancers, the NFL is full of them. New England seemed to make it a thing by taking cancers from other teams. 

Still spinning dumping Culter and Marshall for value as a bad move? Yikes

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19 hours ago, 84 Lives!!! said:

He hasn't proven that on the field yet...

Quote

 

He finished 16 as well as Green finished 17

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50 minutes ago, Nastradamus said:

Still spinning dumping Culter and Marshall for value as a bad move? Yikes

Either you're not reading or choosing to be dense. I never said they were bad trades. The issue is that both players refused to play for McDaniels. They were traded because they wanted out. Haven't even gotten to the fact that Tony Scheffler requested a trade, Mike Nolan chose to leave his staff, and Todd Haley refused to shake his hand. I find it hard to believe that everyone else is the issue. 

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17 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

Either you're not reading or choosing to be dense. I never said they were bad trades. The issue is that both players refused to play for McDaniels. They were traded because they wanted out. Haven't even gotten to the fact that Tony Scheffler requested a trade, Mike Nolan chose to leave his staff, and Todd Haley refused to shake his hand. I find it hard to believe that everyone else is the issue. 

The point you haven't responded to is...why is it bad for a coach to want to move two clubhouse cancers for a solid value that would ultimately lead to them acquiring the right players that won them a Super Bowl a few years later? 

Sure, they were both talented...they also were both seen then and now as players who were detrimental to team unity and winning overall.

Now, obviously we aren't sitting in on the interviews or have in-depth knowledge of his temperament, but I find is extremely plausible he tried to do too much and make too big of a splash (a la Shanahan) and learned from it. I don't need the HC to be a "nice" guy, I need him to put the team in the best position to win football games, he can start off by making sure we have the right amount of players on the field.

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21 minutes ago, EchO said:

The point you haven't responded to is...why is it bad for a coach to want to move two clubhouse cancers for a solid value that would ultimately lead to them acquiring the right players that won them a Super Bowl a few years later? 

Sure, they were both talented...they also were both seen then and now as players who were detrimental to team unity and winning overall.

Now, obviously we aren't sitting in on the interviews or have in-depth knowledge of his temperament, but I find is extremely plausible he tried to do too much and make too big of a splash (a la Shanahan) and learned from it. I don't need the HC to be a "nice" guy, I need him to put the team in the best position to win football games, he can start off by making sure we have the right amount of players on the field.

McDaniels didn't decide to move them. They refused to play for him. Cutler demanded a trade and was granted his request. What led Denver to a Super Bowl was Peyton Manning falling into their lap. The Broncos got Robert Ayers, Alphonso Smith, Richard Quinn, and Kyle Orton for Cutler. None of them contributed to the Super Bowl teams and none of the QB's, even the heir apparent Tim Tebow, were as good as Cutler until Peyton Manning fell in their lap. Denver also got nothing for the Brandon Marshall trade. They traded one of their 2nd rounders to Baltimore for Tim Tebow and used the other one to draft Orlando Franklin. 

The league is full of players like Cutler and Marshall. As a head coach you have to be able to get the most out of them. It wasn't just Cutler and Marshall. There were other players and staff who couldn't get along with him. Rumors were he couldn't get along with Peyton Hillis who he traded for Brady Quinn. Didn't McDaniels recently get into a shouting match on the sideline with Brady? Putting all that aside, what has he accomplished? After he got fired in less than two seasons in Denver, he went to St Louis as offensive coordinator and the Rams had one of the worst offensive seasons in their history. Sam Bradford as a 2nd year pro regressed and had the worst season of his career albeit with injuries. The Patriots have a machine like offense which all other coordinators who have gone through New England have been able to accomplish. Kudos to McDaniels for getting the most out of Matt Cassell. That appears to be the only thing he has accomplished.  

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3 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

Our good friend Jim Schwartz is a leading candidate for the Giants job. I think he's worthy of a second chance.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/21922019/jim-schwartz-running-coach-new-york-giants

If Schwartz gets hired by an NFL team as head coach he will break the vicious cycle of ex-Lions head coaches Not getting head-coaching gig's.

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6 minutes ago, Kamakzie said:

If Schwartz gets hired by an NFL team as head coach he will break the vicious cycle of ex-Lions head coaches Not getting head-coaching gig's.

I think he will get hired eventually. Everywhere he's gone, his defenses have played well. He inherited an 0-16 team and got them to 10 wins and the playoffs in three years. Hopefully he's matured and his teams are more disciplined. I also wouldn't be surprised if Caldwell got another job. 

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On 12/25/2017 at 9:53 PM, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Get me someone who knows how to properly manage the clock and basic in-game situations. Start with the basics and build from there. My top 10 would be something like this . . .

1.    John Harbaugh –Head Coach, Baltimore Ravens (I would trade a draft pick for him if the Ravens would entertain it)
2.    Darrell Bevell – Offensive Coordinator, Seattle Seahawks
3.    Brian Kelly – Head Coach, Notre Dame
4.    Paul Chryst – Head Coach, Wisconsion
5.    David Shaw – Head Coach, Stanford
6.    Josh McDaniels – Offensive Coordinator, New England Patriots
7.    Pat Shurmur – Offensive Coordinator, Minnesota Vikings
8.    Matt Patricia – Defensive Coordinator, New England Patriots
9.    Kris Richard – Defensive Coordinator, Seattle Seahawks
10.  Teryl Austin

Not that my opinion matters but I would rather hire a coach with an offensive mind, who can actually out scheme other teams.  Maybe that will require hiring someone with no headcoaching experience.  But I'd rather take a shot at that, like what the Rams did last offseason, the hire some retread bum like Jeff Fisher or another emotionless robot like Caldwell.  

 

As for your list, maybe I am to picky but alot of those guys I wouldnt want.  Brian Kelly?  He is old, and more importantly he is a dickhead who nobody wants to play for.  Would his style work in the NFL? I wouldnt want to be the team to try it. Paul Chryst? More boring than Caldwell.  He has run some solid programs but I believe he has benefited from a weak schedule at Wiscy.  Also guys coming from college more often than not struggle in the NFL.  I know there are exceptions but I dont see it from this guy.  Shaw? same as Chryst. I dont know much about Shurmur, other than he previously coached the Browns. He has done well with Minnesota this year. Richard I know nothing about.   I would love an offensive minded coach like Mcdaniels.  Patricia has the pedigree as well but would need to hire a good staff.  Would love Harbaugh too, even though his teams always suck on offense, the guy is a winner. I doubt he would leave though.  He loves Baltimore. 

 

Sorry this is long.  Just curious, could you tell me what you like about Kelly, Chryst, Shaw, and Bevell? Maybe I am missing something.  I just think the Lions are close.  A good coach can be worth 2-3 more wins, the difference between division titles, home playoff games, etc.  I'll give Caldwell credit for helping to change the losing culture but to take the next step they need a better coach.  I am interested to see what they do here and interested in all candidates. 

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Like others are saying but worth repeating.  I would like a HC: 

-That can first and most importantly hire a good staff.  Coaching in football is so damn important and is the difference between making the playoffs or losing 2-4 close games and staying home.  

-That is creative schematically and unpredictable.   For example. Stafford and Abdullah line up in the pistol, and guess what?? It is a zone stretch play! 3rd and 4?  A crossing route to Tate!  If I knew what they were going to run, you can be sure that opposing teams did as well. Time for some creative minds.  Stafford is top 5.  They have a solid WR corps, with an athletic freak in Golladay.  Same can be said about the TE group with Ebron.  As for the running game, I constantly see it addressed in the offseason with no results.  I put it on coaching at this point.  I see teams with undrafted linemen and undrafted RB's that have a solid run attack.  When coaching lacks creativity and is predictable you see things like a team going 5 fricking years without 100 yards rushing. 

- That understands game management (when to throw the damn challenge flag for example)- This was constantly an issue with Caldwell and I still am baffled by it. 

-That plays to win, instead of "not to lose"  ( I HATE conservative football)

I sound greedy and maybe unreasonable to expect so much but damnit I am sick of watching them lose.  I think the Lions have the same, if not better, talent than most of the teams in the Playoffs this year.  The difference: Coaching.  The right hire can make all the difference.  I think Quinn has been a solid GM.  He has drafted well.  He has resigned key talent.  He hasnt overspent on the FA market.  My only complaint was keeping Caldwell two years ago.  Martha forced Caldwell on him when he was first hired, but keeping him the past 2 is on him.  So I am interested to see what he does here. 

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On 12/27/2017 at 7:01 PM, Motown Bombers said:

McDaniels drove away his franchise QB and WR and not to mention the video taping scandal. I just don't understand what there is to like about McDaniels. What has he shown that makes people want to talk about him as a top candidate?

You can't say franchise QB and Jay Cutler in the same sentence.  Come on. Beyond ridiculous. 

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13 minutes ago, RJBBREZ said:

You can't say franchise QB and Jay Cutler in the same sentence.  Come on. Beyond ridiculous. 

Jay Cutler was 25 years old coming off a pro bowl season. Instead of developing Cutler, he pissed him off and traded for a journeyman QB. Jay Cutler's line in Denver prior to McDaniels:

62.3% 4,526 7.3 282.9 25 18 86.0

 

Cut down on the interceptions and he's basically Stafford. Chicago traded two 1's and two 2's for a QB Denver had to trade. You don't give that up unless you think he's a franchise. Jay Cutler and Matthew Stafford were basically the same QB until JBC came along and elevated Stafford to an elite QB and yet you want to fire him in favor of McDaniels. 

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3 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

Jay Cutler was 25 years old coming off a pro bowl season. Instead of developing Cutler, he pissed him off and traded for a journeyman QB. Jay Cutler's line in Denver prior to McDaniels:

62.3% 4,526 7.3 282.9 25 18 86.0

 

Cut down on the interceptions and he's basically Stafford. Chicago traded two 1's and two 2's for a QB Denver had to trade. You don't give that up unless you think he's a franchise. Jay Cutler and Matthew Stafford were basically the same QB until JBC came along and elevated Stafford to an elite QB and yet you want to fire him in favor of McDaniels. 

What a player does with it over a career (and thus the numbers) is always a separate matter, but Stafford has elite physical skills as a passer - esp his release time. Cutler is a more run of the mill product so while at some point their numbers may have been similar, they are not particularly similar QBs. Chicago's mistake.

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2 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

What a player does with it over a career (and thus the numbers) is always a separate matter, but Stafford has elite physical skills as a passer - esp his release time. Cutler is a more run of the mill product so while at some point their numbers may have been similar, they are not particularly similar QBs. Chicago's mistake.

Cutler's talent has never been questioned. The difference between Cutler and Stafford is that Stafford cut down his turnovers and improved his accuracy. Stafford is making better decisions with the ball. Not necessarily better talent. 

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I vividly remember people wanting to trade the would be Stafford pick for Cutler, saying that "Cutler is what you hope Stafford turns out to be", of course Denver didn't want that pick cause they didn't want to spend the money that came with it.

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Cutler has had some good years but he is not Stafford. Imagine Stafford on NE or PIT or any team with consistent success...Stafford has perhaps the loudest arm in the NFL and the ability to make unbelievable throws and throw out of arm slots that only Aaron Rodgers knows how to do besides Stafford..he's the best QB in team history by leaps and bounds and is wildly talented. He needs a coach and scheme worthy of him. Whether the Lions could build that for him is the crux to this team's success..otherwise they're gonna waste him just like they wasted Johnson and Sanders.

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3 hours ago, Vonlenska said:

Cutler has had some good years but he is not Stafford. Imagine Stafford on NE or PIT or any team with consistent success...Stafford has perhaps the loudest arm in the NFL and the ability to make unbelievable throws and throw out of arm slots that only Aaron Rodgers knows how to do besides Stafford..he's the best QB in team history by leaps and bounds and is wildly talented. He needs a coach and scheme worthy of him. Whether the Lions could build that for him is the crux to this team's success..otherwise they're gonna waste him just like they wasted Johnson and Sanders.

yup. He was/is the classic WCF system draft pick - maximum pizzazz - a marquee player that might get you to the top even though you don't have an organization that knows how to actually build the rest of a  FB team. A worthy successor in the line from Farr to Sims, Owens, Sanders, Ware, Johnson. All the kind of skill guys that WCF wanted because they would 'put fannies in the seats'. Just keep hoping Quinn is the guy with the rest of the formula!

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Whether or not Cutler was on Stafford's trajectory is not germane to the larger point MB was making (I know he made the claim).

Namely, Cutler was drafted (10th overall, IIRC) with the idea he would be a franchise quarterback.  He appeared on his way when he demanded to be traded and Chicago obviously thought very highly of his potential.

I don't know why he demanded to be traded, but the fact Jay made the demand *might* speak to concerns regarding McDaniels.  That is as strongly as I would put it.  I would imagine a team could/would suss out the pertinent details if they are interested in hiring him to coach.

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20 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

yup. He was/is the classic WCF system draft pick - maximum pizzazz - a marquee player that might get you to the top even though you don't have an organization that knows how to actually build the rest of a  FB team. A worthy successor in the line from Farr to Sims, Owens, Sanders, Ware, Johnson. All the kind of skill guys that WCF wanted because they would 'put fannies in the seats'. Just keep hoping Quinn is the guy with the rest of the formula!

To be fair, Stafford was the classic pick for any team that needed a QB in that draft.

It is hard to argue with drafting Sanders.  It was either him or the other Sanders.  Either way you would make the same argument, but how do you fault anyone for drafting the guy who was the class of his position throughout their careers and were 1st ballot HoFers independent of their motives.

Ware was drafted in large part because he played the run and shoot at Houston and the Lions both ran the run and shoot and needed a QB.  There were no shortage of draftniks that thought that was a match made in heaven.

I would have argued Mike Williams or Charles Rogers of Johnson.  Johnson was the best player available at the pick, if not the entire draft.  The fact he could put butts in the seat is just gravy.

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23 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Whether or not Cutler was on Stafford's trajectory is not germane to the larger point MB was making (I know he made the claim).

Namely, Cutler was drafted (10th overall, IIRC) with the idea he would be a franchise quarterback.  He appeared on his way when he demanded to be traded and Chicago obviously thought very highly of his potential.

I don't know why he demanded to be traded, but the fact Jay made the demand *might* speak to concerns regarding McDaniels.  That is as strongly as I would put it.  I would imagine a team could/would suss out the pertinent details if they are interested in hiring him to coach.

But he demanded to be traded because he heard Mcdaniels shopped him and targeted Matt Cassel(for the short term). Mcdaniels clearly saw a flaw and the fact that he didn't like the affect of Marshall and Cutler in the locker room was widely talked about at the time. THey didn't just decide they didn't like Josh's personality and demand a trade. 

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