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BECAUSE Not Caldwell, So Then Who?

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On 12/25/2017 at 11:56 PM, hardyaf said:

For the record, I want to give Caldwell props. I have never ever been a fan of his, and admittedly had to eat my words multiple times. But, while I again think he must be fired, I must say, being born in 1988, he has brought the lions to a level never seen in my (realistic memory) lifetime. I missed most of the Barry years, I am a "lost fan". So I would say thanks for making us a legitimate team, but its time to enter the stage of a franchise where you expect to win, not expect to compete. 

Thanks Caldwell for legitimatizing us, by making a team that will almost always beat bad teams. Its now time to find the guy who can beat the good teams 50/50.

I second this... the Lions are about as respectable a team as they have been in my lifetime (both on and off the field) and he played a role in elevating them. I would even argue that if there were a way, he would be a positive person to have within the organization going forward, just not as head coach.

Hopefully they can go out there and hire Matt Patricia to finish the job.

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38 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Honestly, had the Lions won a play-off game under Caldwell (say they beat the Cowboys), would anyone be arguing to keep him now?

Doubt it. The whole playoff win thing is weird to me though. A playoff game isn’t some special thing. It’s just another football game.

 

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Just now, Shelton said:

Doubt it. The whole playoff win thing is weird to me though. A playoff game isn’t some special thing. It’s just another football game.

 

It's the same sort of rationalizing that Jerruh uses to justify his continued employment of Jason Garrett, despite the fact that his teams are consistently outcoached and outclassed on a weekly basis.

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2 hours ago, T&P_Fan said:

Me.  I'm the coach.  

We will never get stopped on 3rd and 1.  Will run it only if we're tying to kill the clock. Never punt on the other side of the field.   Will got for it on 4th and less than 5 100 percent of time outside my own 25 yard line.   Will fire OC if he runs it on 1st and 15 and then again on 2nd and 18. 

Seriously, was there anything worse than those back to back runs all year?  desparately needing to win, and JBC won't let Stafford throw.  

Also, id hire Buddha as a special advisor, mostly have him post for me on the message board during games.  Refs still gonna cheat ya.  

i'm in!  $tupid ref$.

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My choices would be:

1) Josh McDaniels - I could see him following a similar career timeline as Belichick, failed at his first stop as a HC, recovered and did well during the second stint. He only had two years in Denver and 2010 was a disaster, he had a change over in OC, DC and multiple other coaching spots and he had no QB. He deserves another shot.

2) Matt Patricia - I like what he has done with the Patriots depleted defense. I (generally) would prefer to have a defensive minded HC who makes the right OC hire. If we could get him and then pair him with a guy like DeFillipo (Eagles QB coach), Munchack (Steelers OL coach) or Cable (Seahawks OL coach), I think that could be a winning combo. More so than ever, I want a HC and coordinators who understand the trenches can build from the inside out. Stafford is what he is (a good/great, but not elite QB), at this point we don't need a "QB whisperer"...we need to give him some time and space to make plays. I truly believe Stafford could be a championship QB if we had any semblance of a run game and offensive line.

3) Insert "up and coming" coordinator here...Vrabel, Robiskie, etc. hard to know who would be the best fit with relatively little information on most of these guys, but I would be for trying one of them out. Hard to believe they would be a worse HC than Caldwell at this point.

I would NOT want Shaw or any other college coach as that just doesn't seem to pan out.

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1 hour ago, EchO said:

My choices would be:

1) Josh McDaniels - I could see him following a similar career timeline as Belichick, failed at his first stop as a HC, recovered and did well during the second stint. He only had two years in Denver and 2010 was a disaster, he had a change over in OC, DC and multiple other coaching spots and he had no QB. He deserves another shot.

2) Matt Patricia - I like what he has done with the Patriots depleted defense. I (generally) would prefer to have a defensive minded HC who makes the right OC hire. If we could get him and then pair him with a guy like DeFillipo (Eagles QB coach), Munchack (Steelers OL coach) or Cable (Seahawks OL coach), I think that could be a winning combo. More so than ever, I want a HC and coordinators who understand the trenches can build from the inside out. Stafford is what he is (a good/great, but not elite QB), at this point we don't need a "QB whisperer"...we need to give him some time and space to make plays. I truly believe Stafford could be a championship QB if we had any semblance of a run game and offensive line.

3) Insert "up and coming" coordinator here...Vrabel, Robiskie, etc. hard to know who would be the best fit with relatively little information on most of these guys, but I would be for trying one of them out. Hard to believe they would be a worse HC than Caldwell at this point.

I would NOT want Shaw or any other college coach as that just doesn't seem to pan out.

McDaniels drove away his franchise QB and WR and not to mention the video taping scandal. I just don't understand what there is to like about McDaniels. What has he shown that makes people want to talk about him as a top candidate?

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McDaniels drove away his franchise QB and WR and not to mention the video taping scandal. I just don't understand what there is to like about McDaniels. What has he shown that makes people want to talk about him as a top candidate?

Agreed. Brady has been a superstar with Charlie Weis, Bill O’Brien, and Josh McDaniels. They’ve ridden his coattails. If the Lions are going to raid the Patriots, they better get Matt Patricia.

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9 hours ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Gruden hasn't coached in 10 years, did zero the 5 years after he won the Super Bowl.  Made a couple of play-offs, won a divsion, but failed to win a single play-off game.  Sound familiar?  We can bag on Caldwell all we want - and that is fair - but Gruden didn't accomplish anything more tangible with the Bucs after winning the SB than Caldwell did with the LIons.  It seems to me hiring Gruden means hiring the guy based on what he did 15 - 20 years ago.

Gruden did great things with the Raiders 15-20 years ago and was brought in to put the finishing touches on a stacked team minus a QB, which he did.  Deserves a lot of credit for that.  But it was 15 years ago and there have been a lot changes in the game in 15 years.  A lot of coaches have come and gone in that time frame, such as Mike Shanahan, who frankly was more successful than Jon, if anything, yet I think everyone views Mike as washed up.  That written, I fully conceed Jon could be Dick Vermeil 2.0, but I'd suggest chances are he isn't.

You seem to diminish Gruden's accomplishments, while elevating Caldwell's.  Gruden "did zero the 5 yrs after he won the Super Bowl".  Yes, WON the Super Bowl.  Won TWO division titles after the Super Bowl...with I think Shaun King and Jeff Garcia as the QBs.  Gruden was 5-4 in playoff games, with 3 of those losses to the eventual Super Bowl champion.  He had one horrible season where Tampa Bay was decimated by injuries.  Caldwell was 11-5 his first year, with Jim Schwartz' team, and proceeded to do nothing afterward...and have regressed since that first season.  Like ALL of his teams do throughout his career, wherever he goes.

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7 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

McDaniels drove away his franchise QB and WR and not to mention the video taping scandal. I just don't understand what there is to like about McDaniels. What has he shown that makes people want to talk about him as a top candidate?

The franchise QB was Jay Cutler... are we sure he was wrong there? And didn't he get a ton of picks for him? If those picks pan out (I remember reading an article saying they absolutely did not) maybe that job goes differently.

 

Edit, I'm not sure if he was coach/GM or just coach. If he was responsible for the myriad of poor personnel choices,  I'm sure we can look past that, since he wouldn't be doing that here. If he wasn't, then isn't he the guy who started 6-0 with Kyle Orton at QB?

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10 hours ago, Jason_R said:


Agreed. Brady has been a superstar with Charlie Weis, Bill O’Brien, and Josh McDaniels. They’ve ridden his coattails. If the Lions are going to raid the Patriots, they better get Matt Patricia.

The Patriot defense isn't some juggernaut. It also has Belichick's fingerprints all over it. I am not sold on Patricia. I also think that McDaniels has learned a lot from his mistakes. I am on board with McDaniels.

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The Patriot defense isn't some juggernaut. It also has Belichick's fingerprints all over it. I am not sold on Patricia. I also think that McDaniels has learned a lot from his mistakes. I am on board with McDaniels.

NE defense is 29th in YPG, 17th in takeaways, 12th in sacks... 7th in points/game. I interpret this as meaning they don’t have a lot of talent (traded away best DE and LB) but they execute as the field gets shorter.

 

The offense is all Brady and his receivers running option routes and exploiting the defense, with the greatest TE ever destroying coverage by LBs and safeties.

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7 hours ago, azzurri said:

You seem to diminish Gruden's accomplishments, while elevating Caldwell's. 

How have I elevated Caldwell's accomplishments, exactly?

Gruden Post Super Bowl (45-51, 0-2):

2003: 7-9

2004: 5-11

2005: 11-5, won division, lost play-off game

2006: 4-12

2007: 9-7 won division, lost play-off game

2008: 9-7, fired

 

Caldwell with Lions (35-28, 0-2)

2014: 11-5, lost play-off game

2015: 7-9

2016: 9-7, lost play-off game

2017 8-7, fired?

 

So Jon Gruden's team won the division with identical records as the the two Caldwell led teams that made the play-offs.  That seems to me due to circumstances inside of the division the years in question.  11-5 often wins a division and 9-7 usually does not.  Besides, excuse me if I am skeptical that you would be using 2014 or 2016 seasons as a reason to keep Caldwell had he won the division those seasons.

In any event, I am not writing this to support Caldwell.  Far from it.  I simply stand by what I wrote before.  If you want Gruden over Caldwell, you are interested in his accomplishments 2002 and prior.  Literally nothing substantive post 2002 argues for Gruden over Caldwell except he isn't Jim.

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17 hours ago, Shelton said:

Doubt it. The whole playoff win thing is weird to me though. A playoff game isn’t some special thing. It’s just another football game.

 

A playoff win is better than no playoff win and playoff wins mean different things to different organizations.  A playoff win means little to the Patriots, a playoff win means a whole lot to an organization that hasn't won one in 25 years and a QB who has never won one. 

It's not just another football game, winning a playoff game gives some credibility to a regime and is a pretty big hurdle to clear for a team looking to take a next step to give them the confidence that they can win a big game.  Ultimately, the goal is to win the Superbowl but individual playoff wins hold a lot of significance as well depending on expectations of course.

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2 hours ago, MAROTH4MVP said:

The Patriot defense isn't some juggernaut. It also has Belichick's fingerprints all over it. I am not sold on Patricia. I also think that McDaniels has learned a lot from his mistakes. I am on board with McDaniels.

What has McDaniels done besides ride Brady's coattails?  How exactly has he learned from his mistakes?  He literally just had a very public spat with Brady a couple of weeks ago.

Patricia got the most out of that personnel this season, a D group that isn't only average on paper but was also ravaged by injuries.  He's worth a shot.

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2 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

McDaniels drove away his franchise QB and WR and not to mention the video taping scandal. I just don't understand what there is to like about McDaniels. What has he shown that makes people want to talk about him as a top candidate?

Did you avoid saying that "franchise QB''s name on purpose...

He also traded Marshall away for good value and then drafted Demayrius Thomas and Eric Decker. But sure, lets go with the TMZ narrative.

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1 hour ago, NYLion said:

What has McDaniels done besides ride Brady's coattails?  How exactly has he learned from his mistakes?  He literally just had a very public spat with Brady a couple of weeks ago.

Patricia got the most out of that personnel this season, a D group that isn't only average on paper but was also ravaged by injuries.  He's worth a shot.

I assume one of the major arguments on Patricia is that many believe Belichick is truly in charge of the D, as he produces a top 10 one most years regardless of DC. 

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21 hours ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

The only reasons anyone mentions Gruden is he won a Super Bowl.  Well, that and he is a commentator, which keeps him in the public's consciousness.  Take either away, and I doubt he would be mentioned.

Honestly, had he not won that Super Bowl, he would be considered a flop in TB.  Post SB, he accomplished very little with the Bucs for 5 years.  Basically his tenure after that Super Bowl was worse than Caldwell's tenure in Detroit.

Lets go get Mike Shanahan.

I'm obsesses with SHanny, but not sure he's up to it any more. He'd be my first call though. 

Gruden basically was the reason both teams were in the SB the year he went. Rough spin on him. 

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19 hours ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Honestly, had the Lions won a play-off game under Caldwell (say they beat the Cowboys), would anyone be arguing to keep him now?

I assume most everyone 

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18 hours ago, Shelton said:

Doubt it. The whole playoff win thing is weird to me though. A playoff game isn’t some special thing. It’s just another football game.

 

win more damn preseason games while you're at it!

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The playoff win is a win against a team over 500. Wins over winning teams in general is an area where the Lions have done poorly and lack credibility - so it's the same issue.

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Keep Caldwell another year. Everyone's gonna fire their coach this offseason and we will be fighting 10 other teams for maybe 2-3 guys who are a Caldwell upgrade. Factor in that and the consistency factor and I see keeping Caldwell through his extension year as the best option. He had rosters that screamed 7-9 the last 3 years IMO and he gave us better than that twice. That's about all I ask of a coach. Add value. This roster has a good talent core, it just needs one more offseason of additions and fine tunings. 

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1 hour ago, NYLion said:

A playoff win is better than no playoff win and playoff wins mean different things to different organizations.  A playoff win means little to the Patriots, a playoff win means a whole lot to an organization that hasn't won one in 25 years and a QB who has never won one. 

It's not just another football game, winning a playoff game gives some credibility to a regime and is a pretty big hurdle to clear for a team looking to take a next step to give them the confidence that they can win a big game.  Ultimately, the goal is to win the Superbowl but individual playoff wins hold a lot of significance as well depending on expectations of course.

Disagree. If the lions had beat the cowboys or saints or Seahawks in the past appearances, it doesn’t make them any closer to a super bowl today. 

It’s just message board and talk radio fodder to rile up the fan base against a team that has been bad to mediocre for a while. 

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