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BECAUSE Not Caldwell, So Then Who?

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I thought about making this a poll, but there are too many choices out there. After laying the proverbial egg last Sunday, it's no surprise there are calls for Jim Caldwell's head. I will go on record saying I'm not one of those voices, but retaining him is also not a hill I'd be willing to die on.  My question is if we do replace him, to whom should we look?

Hot coordinator (Like Rams LaFleur)

2nd Chance (Like Josh McDaniels)

Re-Tread (Like Gruden or Harbaugh)

Promote from Within (Teryl Austin or JB Cooter)

What say you?

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I would just like a young coach with some passion. The Anti-Caldwell. Obviously it would also help if they were good at coaching football. Let them bring in whoever they want. I think Cooter is a good QB coach, but he hasn't showed much as an OC. I'll admit Austin hasn't had a lot of talent to work with, but he hasn't shown me anything to make him seem like an elite DC.

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Get me someone who knows how to properly manage the clock and basic in-game situations. Start with the basics and build from there. My top 10 would be something like this . . .

1.    John Harbaugh –Head Coach, Baltimore Ravens (I would trade a draft pick for him if the Ravens would entertain it)
2.    Darrell Bevell – Offensive Coordinator, Seattle Seahawks
3.    Brian Kelly – Head Coach, Notre Dame
4.    Paul Chryst – Head Coach, Wisconsion
5.    David Shaw – Head Coach, Stanford
6.    Josh McDaniels – Offensive Coordinator, New England Patriots
7.    Pat Shurmur – Offensive Coordinator, Minnesota Vikings
8.    Matt Patricia – Defensive Coordinator, New England Patriots
9.    Kris Richard – Defensive Coordinator, Seattle Seahawks
10.  Teryl Austin

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No retreads, and absolutely NO promotes from within. Broom everyone from the current regime and make a clean break from the past. Do what the Rams did: clear out all the old guard, hire a young, up-and-coming prospect and let him bring in an entire new staff of his choosing. Reboot this thing with some fresh blood, fresh innovative ideas – some young, hungry guys who don't play yesterday's NFL and can relate to millennials. The average age of McVay's staff is around 40

 

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Get me someone who knows how to properly manage the clock and basic in-game situations. Start with the basics and build from there. My top 10 would be something like this . . .
1.    John Harbaugh –Head Coach, Baltimore Ravens (I would trade a draft pick for him if the Ravens would entertain it)
2.    Darrell Bevell – Offensive Coordinator, Seattle Seahawks
3.    Brian Kelly – Head Coach, Notre Dame
4.    Paul Chryst – Head Coach, Wisconsion
5.    David Shaw – Head Coach, Stanford
6.    Josh McDaniels – Offensive Coordinator, New England Patriots
7.    Pat Shurmur – Offensive Coordinator, Minnesota Vikings
8.    Matt Patricia – Defensive Coordinator, New England Patriots
9.    Kris Richard – Defensive Coordinator, Seattle Seahawks
10.  Teryl Austin

Good list. I’ll play along.

I’d be intrigued by the John Harbaugh idea. But I have no interest in a college coach except Saban. He knows what he did wrong in Miami, and he’s proven that he can manage NFL talent (and egos) at Alabama.

Pat Shurmur has a journeyman QB playing like an MVP and an un-drafted WR playing as well as anyone at the position. Yes, please.

Darrell Bevell... I don’t know what he’s done other than let Russell Wilson scramble and make broken plays. But Kris Richard has established a powerful identity on that defense... even if they are always on the verge of a meltdown.

Matt Patricia strikes me as the most Belichick-like guy on the coaching tree. Very resourceful this season. How much is McDaniels riding Brady’s coattails?

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2 hours ago, pyrotigers said:

I would just like a young coach with some passion. The Anti-Caldwell. Obviously it would also help if they were good at coaching football. Let them bring in whoever they want. I think Cooter is a good QB coach, but he hasn't showed much as an OC. I'll admit Austin hasn't had a lot of talent to work with, but he hasn't shown me anything to make him seem like an elite DC.

Sounds just like Jim Schwartz. 

21 minutes ago, number20 said:

No retreads, and absolutely NO promotes from within. Broom everyone from the current regime and make a clean break from the past. Do what the Rams did: clear out all the old guard, hire a young, up-and-coming prospect and let him bring in an entire new staff of his choosing. Reboot this thing with some fresh blood, fresh innovative ideas – some young, hungry guys who don't play yesterday's NFL and can relate to millennials. The average age of McVay's staff is around 40

 

5 of the last 6 Super Bowl champions have been retread coaches. 

 

On a side note, I don't understand what there is to like about Josh McDaniels? The one time he was given a head coaching job, he drove away his franchise QB and star WR. He is an offensive coordinator with Tom Brady. 

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52 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

 

Sounds just like Jim Schwartz. 

5 of the last 6 Super Bowl champions have been retread coaches. 

 

On a side note, I don't understand what there is to like about Josh McDaniels? The one time he was given a head coaching job, he drove away his franchise QB and star WR. He is an offensive coordinator with Tom Brady. 

I think you missed the "it would help if they were good at coaching football" aspect.

I'm thinking less Schwartz and more McVay, Tomlin, Quinn. Guys who were young but at least somewhat proven as knowing what they were doing.

I really don't care though, just get someone good. They can be 80 years old if they won't just stand there on the sideline sin dream land like Caldwell.

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1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said:

5 of the last 6 Super Bowl champions have been retread coaches. 

And the Lions history of success with retread coaches has been so exceptional. Let's hire another one

 

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10 minutes ago, number20 said:

And the Lions history of success with retread coaches has been so exceptional. Let's hire another one

 

And the Lions' history of success with promoted from within coaches has been so exceptional.  Let's hire another one.

And the Lions' history of success with college coaches has been so exceptional.  Let's hire another one.

And the Lions' history of success with assistant coaches has been so exceptional.  Let's hire another one.

And the Lions' history of success with FILL IN THE BLANK coaches has been so exceptional.  Let's hire another one.

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2 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Get me someone who knows how to properly manage the clock and basic in-game situations. Start with the basics and build from there. My top 10 would be something like this . . .

1.    John Harbaugh –Head Coach, Baltimore Ravens (I would trade a draft pick for him if the Ravens would entertain it)
2.    Darrell Bevell – Offensive Coordinator, Seattle Seahawks
3.    Brian Kelly – Head Coach, Notre Dame
4.    Paul Chryst – Head Coach, Wisconsion
5.    David Shaw – Head Coach, Stanford
6.    Josh McDaniels – Offensive Coordinator, New England Patriots
7.    Pat Shurmur – Offensive Coordinator, Minnesota Vikings
8.    Matt Patricia – Defensive Coordinator, New England Patriots
9.    Kris Richard – Defensive Coordinator, Seattle Seahawks
10.  Teryl Austin

Bill O'Brien might get axed in Houston.  I wouldn't mind taking a look at him.

Why would John Harbaugh leave Baltimore for here?  If he's available, he'd certainly be at the top of the list.

Shaw isn't leaving Stanford.

No interest in Kelly or Chryst.

McDaniels will be a hot property and probably want personnel control.  So he's probably out.

Petricia could undoubtedly be had, but it's not like Bellichek has a long history of successful coordinators turning into good head coaches.

Shurmer, Richard and Bevell are all shots in the dark.

How about Mark Dantonio?  Dave Toub?  Mike Vrabel?

Saban is a pipe dream.  He wouldn't leave Bama and if he somehow did get lured for $10 million per year, he'd want total control.  Maybe the Giants, Bears, or another big name team.  Not the lowly Lions.

No way to Todd Haley.  He's a weird dude.

One would think Quinn's first calls would be to anyone he knew from New England, but who knows? 

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I wanted Matt Patricia the last time we did this (4 years ago), and I still do. He's my 1. I know Pats coordinators have had their failures in their past, but headcoaches often need 2 times, so I would also love McDaniels. Either Pats coordinator is where I am at.

 

While it would never happen, and I don't want it, I would be okay with schwartz x2 as well. I think the dude has potential. Everywhere he goes his defenses kill it.

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For the record, I want to give Caldwell props. I have never ever been a fan of his, and admittedly had to eat my words multiple times. But, while I again think he must be fired, I must say, being born in 1988, he has brought the lions to a level never seen in my (realistic memory) lifetime. I missed most of the Barry years, I am a "lost fan". So I would say thanks for making us a legitimate team, but its time to enter the stage of a franchise where you expect to win, not expect to compete. 

Thanks Caldwell for legitimatizing us, by making a team that will almost always beat bad teams. Its now time to find the guy who can beat the good teams 50/50.

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41 minutes ago, Buddha said:

And the Lions' history of success with promoted from within coaches has been so exceptional.  Let's hire another one.

And the Lions' history of success with college coaches has been so exceptional.  Let's hire another one.

And the Lions' history of success with assistant coaches has been so exceptional.  Let's hire another one.

And the Lions' history of success with FILL IN THE BLANK coaches has been so exceptional.  Let's hire another one.

This is really more of an indictment of Ford's inability to run a football franchise. All I'm saying Buddha is I don't want another recycled HC that's already been fired somewhere else for losing. Setting aside the Millen disaster, I can't think of a time when the Lions completely cleaned house, brought in a brand new GM from outside and an up-and-coming coach with an entirely new staff. Right now would be a good time

 

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I wouldn't hire Darrell Bevell based on that stupid Super Bowl play call.   That's exactly the problem we seem to be having with Caldwell.  I can't believe the Seahawks didn't fire him.    

Here's the thing about Josh McDaniel and Pat Shurmur.   They both had short term shots and failed.   You can't hold it against Shurmur, he coached the Browns and that organization is a bigger mess than the Lions,  they hover around Matt Millen standards,  and he never had a QB to work with because Cleveland is where quarterbacks go to die.      

McDaniels was pretty young when he took the Broncos job and he was pretty cocky and I think the vets didn't respond well to that.   He's more seasoned, more weathered and maybe learned from his mistakes.   Hopefully he did because if he didn't he could be a disaster.  

I know Brian Kelly has mellowed a little bit but that kind of act isn't going to play very well or very long in the NFL.

David Shaw is intriguing but I think he wants his shot at a CFB playoff first.   

Paul Cryst - I would let to see Wisconsin have some real competition in the Big Ten West for a few years before I even think about it.  I have no idea if he's a good coach or just a lucky one.    

Nick Saban -  Great college coach and I think that's where it ends for him.   He's going to retire in 2-3 years anyway

Matt Patricia & Mike Vrabel -  Never been a Head Coach but Quinn knows them both.  Hard to tell what they would be like but there were be a lot of openings this offseason and someoene is going to hire at least one of them.  

Or maybe they stick with Teryl Austin thinking he's gotten more out of a banged up defense with a lack of depth and experience.   Remember, it's the game management that seems to be the biggest coaching issue for the Lions.   Quinn has to use his strong cap space and draft to fortify the lines and get a running back.  They have the cap space to do it thanks to Ziggy's bad year (He'll get a one year deal to try to turn it around).   It's the bad starts (Refusal to admit you have no running game) and game management really.   

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8 hours ago, hardyaf said:

For the record, I want to give Caldwell props. I have never ever been a fan of his, and admittedly had to eat my words multiple times. But, while I again think he must be fired, I must say, being born in 1988, he has brought the lions to a level never seen in my (realistic memory) lifetime. I missed most of the Barry years, I am a "lost fan". So I would say thanks for making us a legitimate team, but its time to enter the stage of a franchise where you expect to win, not expect to compete. 

Thanks Caldwell for legitimatizing us, by making a team that will almost always beat bad teams. Its now time to find the guy who can beat the good teams 50/50.

That's really sad when a level never seen in your lifetime (although a pretty young life) is 2 playoff appearances in 4 seasons and zero playoff victories.  You didn't really miss much in the Barry years either, trust me so we are all "lost fans".  Actually, there are some 70 year old Lions fans who are lost fans as well.

I don't know I'd want in place of Caldwell but I do know that I'm vehemently opposed to a college hire unless it's Harbaugh.  The game and handling of players is just too different in the NFL. I only say Harbaugh because he has had success everywhere he's been and runs pro style schemes.

I have a feeling that Quinn makes a run at McDaniels or Patricia, the New England connections. I'd say no to McDaniels because what has he ever done outside of coaching up Brady? Patricia seems to get the most out of his personnel but I don't know if that's more him or just being a small cog in the Belichick machine.  What I prefer more than anything is a coach with a creative mind who is willing to take chances and breed some passion into this team. 

In any event, it all starts with the players regardless of who the coach is.  The roster, as is, just isn't good enough especially on the lines (I'd give the O-Line a pass because they were never healthy) so I think Caldwell had done an "ok" job all things considered but ok shouldn't be good enough especially when you have a QB who is capable of taking the team places.

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14 hours ago, pyrotigers said:

I think you missed the "it would help if they were good at coaching football" aspect.

I'm thinking less Schwartz and more McVay, Tomlin, Quinn. Guys who were young but at least somewhat proven as knowing what they were doing.

I really don't care though, just get someone good. They can be 80 years old if they won't just stand there on the sideline sin dream land like Caldwell.

Schwartz was a proven defensive coach. You never know how they are going to be until given a head coaching position. 

13 hours ago, number20 said:

And the Lions history of success with retread coaches has been so exceptional. Let's hire another one

 

The Lions have a history of success with non retread coaches? How did Schwartz, Marinelli, and Mornhinweg work out?

12 hours ago, number20 said:

This is really more of an indictment of Ford's inability to run a football franchise. All I'm saying Buddha is I don't want another recycled HC that's already been fired somewhere else for losing. Setting aside the Millen disaster, I can't think of a time when the Lions completely cleaned house, brought in a brand new GM from outside and an up-and-coming coach with an entirely new staff. Right now would be a good time

 

The Lions did clean house and brought in a GM from outside the organization. Bill Belichick was fired after going 36-44 with Cleveland. Pete Carrol was fired for losing. Gary Kubiak was fired for losing. Tom Coughlin was fired. These are 5 of the last 6 Super Bowl winning head coaches. 

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I see no reason to keep Caldwell, and I also have no idea what would be best for the team. 

I suppose that as long as the result is an OC or coach that is tailored to make the most out of Stafford, I’ll be happy. Probably won’t know until this time next year. 

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13 hours ago, number20 said:

This is really more of an indictment of Ford's inability to run a football franchise. All I'm saying Buddha is I don't want another recycled HC that's already been fired somewhere else for losing. Setting aside the Millen disaster, I can't think of a time when the Lions completely cleaned house, brought in a brand new GM from outside and an up-and-coming coach with an entirely new staff. Right now would be a good time

 

jim schwartz was a brand new up and coming coach.

the point is that there is no magic formula for finding the right head coach.  retreads succeed and some fail.  young coordinators succeed and some fail.  college coaches almost never succeed but some do (carroll, harbaugh).

there is no magic bullet.  quinn has been in the business for a long time.  he should know what he wants out of a coach and go get that guy.  martha letting him do his job and not interferring is really all we can hope for.

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18 minutes ago, Buddha said:

jim schwartz was a brand new up and coming coach.

the point is that there is no magic formula for finding the right head coach.  retreads succeed and some fail.  young coordinators succeed and some fail.  college coaches almost never succeed but some do (carroll, harbaugh).

there is no magic bullet.  quinn has been in the business for a long time.  he should know what he wants out of a coach and go get that guy.  martha letting him do his job and not interferring is really all we can hope for.

I think Schwartz was exactly the guy they needed at the time they got him.  He took them as far as he could and then he got stale.  Not a bad head coach.   

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1 hour ago, Buddha said:

jim schwartz was a brand new up and coming coach.

the point is that there is no magic formula for finding the right head coach.  retreads succeed and some fail.  young coordinators succeed and some fail.  college coaches almost never succeed but some do (carroll, harbaugh).

there is no magic bullet.  quinn has been in the business for a long time.  he should know what he wants out of a coach and go get that guy.  martha letting him do his job and not interferring is really all we can hope for.

I'm actually not against internally promoted coordinators. Just not anyone from the current regime (and I didn't think Schwartz was a bad hire at the time. i'm just aporetic about using any hiring example from the M&M era with those twin idiots making the decisions). 

If you research the entire Super Bowl era, 38 of the last 51 winning coaches were not previously fired retreads. From the mid-90s to the beginning, none of them were. And of the last 10 SBs won by previously fired coaches, half of them came from one guy: Belichick. Being previously fired does not testify the causality of winning later, the explanatory variable is a false one, and if I were Quinn I'd stay away from it. Yes there's no magic bullet, but of the options it's the least favorable – I don't think it's the right move for this franchise. I'd love a clean start with a young prospect and refreshed coaching staff. The Lions already have their brand new GM. Now finish the reboot by finally running Caldwell and Co. out of town and let Quinn mold the Lions in his own vision from scratch. I can't imagine he'd let someone like Caldwell define his legacy in Detroit. As you said, I hope to helll Martha realizes that

 

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belicheck and carroll were both fired and went on to be pretty good.  getting fired doesnt mean youre a bad coach or cant succeed somewhere else.

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15 minutes ago, Buddha said:

belicheck and carroll were both fired and went on to be pretty good.  getting fired doesnt mean youre a bad coach or cant succeed somewhere else.

There's always a fresh a crop of fired coaches at the end of the year. If you were Quinn, would you consider any of them? – Fox, Pagano, Koetter, etc. Or would you prefer an up-and-coming coordinator (not a binary question, actually. "Both" is cool – I was just curious if you were roping your way in one direction)

 

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1 hour ago, number20 said:

There's always a fresh a crop of fired coaches at the end of the year. If you were Quinn, would you consider any of them? – Fox, Pagano, Koetter, etc. Or would you prefer an up-and-coming coordinator (not a binary question, actually. "Both" is cool – I was just curious if you were roping your way in one direction)

 

again, it depends on the coach.

if bruce arians or bill o'brien are let go, yes i would consider them.

spagnolo, mcdaniels?  i guess it depends on the interview and the intelligence about why they didnt succeed the first time.  do they have the same vision on the team as quinn?  can they implement the plan?

we'll never know the answers to those questions because none of us is privy to that information, but i think its premature to foreclose an entire genre of coaches because they failed - or didnt succeed enough - at another place.

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