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Lions @ Bears (1pm est)

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Bears v Lions is my annual Superbowl. I get two a year. Yes, pathetic. But I'm a Lions fan. And I despise the Bears.

Queens have a tough game Sunday. I'm thinking they lose to the Rams, so if the Bears win at least Detroit doesn't lose ground. A Lions win makes Thanksgiving a colossal showdown

 

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1 minute ago, Shelton said:

So is the argument he is making that the bears player fumbles the ball, but he then touches out of bounds and makes contact with the ball before the ball hit the pylon? Perhaps. He spends way too much time in that video taking about how he is touching the ball well before there is any issue about touching the ball or not. 

Yeah, it's a poorly done video, but it does show the side-by side really well. Which is something we assume the NFL has the same ability to do, but I kind of doubt it based on the calls they make. 

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Anyway, if you guys hate the end zone fumble touchback rule, that’s fine. It’s always been this way, though. I know that doesn’t necessarily make something a good rule. But this is also a pretty standard rule. We aren’t talking about technicalities like what you can and can’t challenge, or the specific requirements for a catch, or things like that.

but sure, if you want to let the last team go have possession keep possession from the point the ball was fumbled, fine. Although when you create rules like this, which they did a long time ago, there is clearly something you want to incentivize or discourage with the rule. In this case it seems like you want to incentivize ball control at the goal line and prevent attempts to reach out and let the ball come loose as you are reaching for the goal line. 

I don’t really care either way. If they wanted to change it, fine. 

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4 minutes ago, hardyaf said:

Yeah, it's a poorly done video, but it does show the side-by side really well. Which is something we assume the NFL has the same ability to do, but I kind of doubt it based on the calls they make. 

It’s a tricky one to use the indisputable evidence standard, because the call on the field had nothing to do with whether the ball was fumbled and if he was touched the ball out of bounds after the fumble. The call was that he was down at the 2 or whatever. There was clear eveidence that he wasn’t down at the 2. So then what? He also clearly fumbled the ball. So now you have to decide whether or not the ball was dead short of the goal line or not. There was no call on the field for that. And to me, it still looks to me like he isn’t touching the ball while he is out of bounds. 

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4 minutes ago, Shelton said:

Anyway, if you guys hate the end zone fumble touchback rule, that’s fine. It’s always been this way, though. I know that doesn’t necessarily make something a good rule. But this is also a pretty standard rule. We aren’t talking about technicalities like what you can and can’t challenge, or the specific requirements for a catch, or things like that.

but sure, if you want to let the last team go have possession keep possession from the point the ball was fumbled, fine. Although when you create rules like this, which they did a long time ago, there is clearly something you want to incentivize or discourage with the rule. In this case it seems like you want to incentivize ball control at the goal line and prevent attempts to reach out and let the ball come loose as you are reaching for the goal line. 

I don’t really care either way. If they wanted to change it, fine. 

Honestly, I think the big issue is that it really seems like the NFL (likely through human bias) seems to dig into replay to take the ball away from bad teams, and glosses over things to not take the ball away from good teams.

I don't care what the rules are, but when I see these things go against the lions, bears, etc, then I see Brandin Cooks drop a ball going to the ground and get an un-reviewed TD for the patriots, I die a little inside. 

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2 minutes ago, Shelton said:

It’s a tricky one to use the indisputable evidence standard, because the call on the field had nothing to do with whether the ball was fumbled and if he was touched the ball out of bounds after the fumble. The call was that he was down at the 2 or whatever. There was clear eveidence that he wasn’t down at the 2. So then what? He also clearly fumbled the ball. So now you have to decide whether or not the ball was dead short of the goal line or not. There was no call on the field for that. And to me, it still looks to me like he isn’t touching the ball while he is out of bounds. 

Honest question. Since I don't really care that the bears got screwed (IMO), lets reverse it and say it's Jordy Nelson with the ball. How do you think the play ends up? I think 95% of people would say Packers retain the ball. That's the issue with the NFL imo.

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13 minutes ago, hardyaf said:

Honest question. Since I don't really care that the bears got screwed (IMO), lets reverse it and say it's Jordy Nelson with the ball. How do you think the play ends up? I think 95% of people would say Packers retain the ball. That's the issue with the NFL imo.

95% of jaded Lions fans*

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29 minutes ago, hardyaf said:

Honest question. Since I don't really care that the bears got screwed (IMO), lets reverse it and say it's Jordy Nelson with the ball. How do you think the play ends up? I think 95% of people would say Packers retain the ball. That's the issue with the NFL imo.

I don’t really buy into that, but you never know. I think they usually get it right. 

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28 minutes ago, hardyaf said:

Honest question. Since I don't really care that the bears got screwed (IMO), lets reverse it and say it's Jordy Nelson with the ball. How do you think the play ends up? I think 95% of people would say Packers retain the ball. That's the issue with the NFL imo.

The issue from where I sit is that the NFL has forgotten that it is about entertainment. 

It does not add to the entertainment value of the game to have rules so complex that you need lawyers to pop into the broadcast to explain them.

It does not add to the entertainment value of the game to have an extended pause after every dramatic play for a distant official to review.

It does not add to the entertainment value of the game to have rules so punitive that one team can be an inch from scoring on an exciting play, and suddenly the ball belongs to the other team.

You can't run each game like a legal case. George Carlin used to talk about football being a quintessentially American game because of all the war metaphors. Now it is quintessentially American because of how over-litigated and regulated it has become.

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10 minutes ago, Jason_R said:

The issue from where I sit is that the NFL has forgotten that it is about entertainment. 

It does not add to the entertainment value of the game to have rules so complex that you need lawyers to pop into the broadcast to explain them.

It does not add to the entertainment value of the game to have an extended pause after every dramatic play for a distant official to review.

It does not add to the entertainment value of the game to have rules so punitive that one team can be an inch from scoring on an exciting play, and suddenly the ball belongs to the other team.

You can't run each game like a legal case. George Carlin used to talk about football being a quintessentially American game because of all the war metaphors. Now it is quintessentially American because of how over-litigated and regulated it has become.

I like all of this.  We are on the same page with it all.

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2 minutes ago, John_Brian_K said:

I like all of this.  We are on the same page with it all.

Thanks. I just scratch my head that the NFL wants fans to pay hundreds of dollars for a ticket to go to the stadium (typically paid for with substantial tax subsidies), then kick them in the gut by looking for metaphysical certitude when their team appears to cross the plane of the goal line.

Geez, Goodell... have you ever heard of giving the people what they want? Let the people sitting in a freezing rain at Soldier Field celebrate the home team. Let the Lions walk off with a thrilling home win, and show a stadium full of jubilant fans. Does this idiot know anything about marketing or his audience?

He is going to drive the NFL right into the ground, and Jerry Jones is the only one who sees it.

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23 minutes ago, Jason_R said:

The issue from where I sit is that the NFL has forgotten that it is about entertainment. 

It does not add to the entertainment value of the game to have rules so complex that you need lawyers to pop into the broadcast to explain them.

It does not add to the entertainment value of the game to have an extended pause after every dramatic play for a distant official to review.

It does not add to the entertainment value of the game to have rules so punitive that one team can be an inch from scoring on an exciting play, and suddenly the ball belongs to the other team.

You can't run each game like a legal case. George Carlin used to talk about football being a quintessentially American game because of all the war metaphors. Now it is quintessentially American because of how over-litigated and regulated it has become.

Sure seems to be in parallel with real life. Out in reality world, people get screwed, treated unfairly, harmed, or get taken advantage of by others positions of leverage – so new laws are created. Forgive the pun, but it’s all in the name of fairness and “evening the playing field”. You wonder to what end, though. The US now has approximately 1 lawyer for every 300 people, while the NFL announced this year it was adding 24 full-time referees

 

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29 minutes ago, Jason_R said:

The issue from where I sit is that the NFL has forgotten that it is about entertainment.

I think the NFL is about money

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Just now, number20 said:

I think the NFL is about money

Jerry Jones understands both. If you entertain them, they will come, and spend lots of money.

Goodell seems to think fans owe his league their attention. If he weren't so self-absorbed, he would realize fans are beginning to tune his league out. 

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10 minutes ago, Jason_R said:

Thanks. I just scratch my head that the NFL wants fans to pay hundreds of dollars for a ticket to go to the stadium (typically paid for with substantial tax subsidies), then kick them in the gut by looking for metaphysical certitude when their team appears to cross the plane of the goal line.

Geez, Goodell... have you ever heard of giving the people what they want? Let the people sitting in a freezing rain at Soldier Field celebrate the home team. Let the Lions walk off with a thrilling home win, and show a stadium full of jubilant fans. Does this idiot know anything about marketing or his audience?

He is going to drive the NFL right into the ground, and Jerry Jones is the only one who sees it.

The biggest thing that started to turn me off from the NFL is having to wait to celebrate a TD...especially a game winning TD.  The Tate play is a perfect example.  I want them to get the call right, but I also want to be entertained.  I am sure it is a hard balance for the NFL, but the way it is now is not how it used to be.  If the official signaled TD you could celebrate because you knew they scored or made a big catch etc...now you have to wain to see if a flag comes out or the TD is reviewed.

Almost EVERY single big play I see...I just sit there and wait for the flag....when it does not come the moment to celebrate is gone....when it does come (more often than not) I just say of well.

Again I am sure it is a hard balance to maintain, but it is simply not as fun.  It is supposed to be fun.  Hard to encapsulate my feelings on it, but generally speaking I just do not enjoy watching the games as much as I used to...it may be a combo of having other things I care about now along with the new rules, reviews etc.  I was all in favor of having plays reviewed.  I am starting to think it is hurting the game more than helping.

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Other PFF thoughts this week

Wagner is the 10th over all OT, Reiff is 40th. Lang is 5th at G. Warford is 27th. 

All 3 of our WRs are in the top 30. Fells is 13th at TE, Ebron is 35th. 

Suh is the #2 interior defender.  I want him back. 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Jason_R said:

Jerry Jones understands both. If you entertain them, they will come, and spend lots of money.

Goodell seems to think fans owe his league their attention. If he weren't so self-absorbed, he would realize fans are beginning to tune his league out. 

Sorry this has gotten off topic from Bears/Lions, but it's pretty clear Jones wants Goodell out.

Quote

Sources told Outside the Lines that Jones is one of "four or five owners" who believe Goodell should not continue as commissioner. Another half-dozen owners were called "fence-sitters" by one source -- the exact group that Jones wants Boies to target.

http://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/21342623/jerry-jones-dallas-cowboys-threatens-sue-nfl-roger-goodell

 

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9 minutes ago, Jason_R said:

Jerry Jones understands both. If you entertain them, they will come, and spend lots of money.

Goodell seems to think fans owe his league their attention. If he weren't so self-absorbed, he would realize fans are beginning to tune his league out. 

Jerry is just butthurt Zeke got suspended. Goodell is what he is, but Jerry and the owners are moronic pieces of **** who don't know a whole lot about the business of the NFL in the end. 

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11 minutes ago, number20 said:

Sorry this has gotten off topic from Bears/Lions, but it's pretty clear Jones wants Goodell out.

http://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/21342623/jerry-jones-dallas-cowboys-threatens-sue-nfl-roger-goodell

 

I kind of pulled us off topic too, with my complaints about Goodell. I created another thread for the Goodell/Jones controversy, but haven't had any bites outside of this thread!

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47 minutes ago, Nastradamus said:

Jerry is just butthurt Zeke got suspended. Goodell is what he is, but Jerry and the owners are moronic pieces of **** who don't know a whole lot about the business of the NFL in the end. 

I’d agree with you when it comes to other NFL owners, but not Jones. Say what you will about him, but he’s one of the top business power brokers on the planet. He built the Cowboys into the most valuable sports franchise in the world. Those deals he did in the 90s with Amex and Pepsi while the NFL was in bed with Visa and Coke were balllsy. He pretty much told the league to go F themselves. The NFL sued, and he countersued right back. And got his way in the end. He changed the NFL regarding revenue sharing and marketing. He started his own apparel line and set up his own distribution system independent of the NFL. He’s pulled stuff no other owner would even dare to try. You can get away with that when your franchise generates over 30% of the NFL’s licensing royalties – again, all because of him. He knows exactly what he’s doing. I agree he’s an a-hole, but I don’t think there’s been an NFL owner like him before or since

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1 hour ago, John_Brian_K said:

The biggest thing that started to turn me off from the NFL is having to wait to celebrate a TD...especially a game winning TD.  The Tate play is a perfect example.  I want them to get the call right, but I also want to be entertained.  I am sure it is a hard balance for the NFL, but the way it is now is not how it used to be.  If the official signaled TD you could celebrate because you knew they scored or made a big catch etc...now you have to wain to see if a flag comes out or the TD is reviewed.

Almost EVERY single big play I see...I just sit there and wait for the flag....when it does not come the moment to celebrate is gone....when it does come (more often than not) I just say of well.

Again I am sure it is a hard balance to maintain, but it is simply not as fun.  It is supposed to be fun.  Hard to encapsulate my feelings on it, but generally speaking I just do not enjoy watching the games as much as I used to...it may be a combo of having other things I care about now along with the new rules, reviews etc.  I was all in favor of having plays reviewed.  I am starting to think it is hurting the game more than helping.

Should they not call penalties? 

I understand the thing about replay review. They could always go back to requiring challenge flags rather than automatic review of turnovers and scoring plays. Maybe give the coaches two different types of flags, one for regular plays and others for turnovers and plays in the end zone. 

It seems inequitable to review a play automatically if it was called a touchdown or turnover on the field, but not if it was ruled incomplete or short of the goal line when it could have been a touchdown or when a play wasn’t ruled a turnover but could have been. 

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15 hours ago, Jason_R said:

That is an awful rule.

I disagree... it's the correct call and the correct rule.  It's quirky situation, for sure... honestly this is something that should have happened to the Lions.  But it's based on that the idea that once the ball breaks the plan of the EZ, it's treated like it's in the endzone.

The ball is clearly lose before it hits the pylon, then hits the pylon and therefore it "in the endzone."  If its fumbled out of bounds at that point, it's a TB.

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13 hours ago, Jason_R said:

If an offensive player fumbles while stretching for a TD, and the ball is not recovered by a member of his own team or the opposing team, but goes out of bounds in the end zone, I see no reason why the offensive team shouldn’t keep possession, with the ball placed on the one yard line.

As is, the rule makes one of the most exciting plays - a dash to the end zone - potentially punishable by the severest penalty in football: loss of possession, not to mention the effective removal of points from the board. Makes no sense.

Okay, here's a "For instance..."

I'm running with the ball at about the 10 yard line but you, the defender, are easily going to tackle me.  So I "fumble" the ball forward pretty hard.  The ball rolls out of the endzone.  Now instead of being down at the 10, my team gets the ball at the 1.

Further, a dash to the end zone is always dangerous and there's always the potential for a fumble that is recovered by the defense.  There has to be a rule for fumbles that go out of bounds before recovery... the rule makes simple decided to say: between the EZs: Return it to the offense.  Inside the EZs, it goes to the defense to avoid offenses intentionally trying to gain and advantage.

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4 minutes ago, RedRamage said:

Okay, here's a "For instance..."

I'm running with the ball at about the 10 yard line but you, the defender, are easily going to tackle me.  So I "fumble" the ball forward pretty hard.  The ball rolls out of the endzone.  Now instead of being down at the 10, my team gets the ball at the 1.

Further, a dash to the end zone is always dangerous and there's always the potential for a fumble that is recovered by the defense.  There has to be a rule for fumbles that go out of bounds before recovery... the rule makes simple decided to say: between the EZs: Return it to the offense.  Inside the EZs, it goes to the defense to avoid offenses intentionally trying to gain and advantage.

Isn’t the rule that ball can’t be advanced by a fumble? If you fumble it forward at the five the best you can do is get it at the five right? If that isn’t the rule it could be. 

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1 hour ago, Nastradamus said:

Jerry is just butthurt Zeke got suspended. Goodell is what he is, but Jerry and the owners are moronic pieces of **** who don't know a whole lot about the business of the NFL in the end. 

goodell has made a lot of mistakes.  the initial failure to respond to the domestic violence situations, the failure to deal with the kapernick situation, and now the overreaction to the "domestic violence situation".

but the real problem for me is his failure to stop the protesting in the beginning.  im not saying that as a "nfl players shouldnt protest" nor am i saying that their protests have no merit; rather, from a business and pr standpoint, they have damaged the league and goodell did nothing to stop it when he could have.

what makes the nfl horrible to watch is the commercial breaks.  it takes a 2 hour game and makes it a 4 hour game.

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