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Ron Gardenhire is your new Tiger manager

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9 minutes ago, diaspora04 said:

Now you know what it feels like to be a Jets fan.

I think there are many people here who know that feeling.  

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14 minutes ago, ROMAD1 said:

I once ran into Gabe Kapler at a wave runner rental in St.Petersburg (not Russia).  He was reading Shakespeare's Julius Cesar.  His companions were two very attractive dark haired ladies wearing black dive vests and bikini bottoms.   He referred to one of the ladies as Shasta and the other as Destiny.   While he was there he instructed the wave runner owner that he could maximize his rentals if he extended the rental period during off-peak hours and allowed incremental rentals during peak hours to satisfy turnover demand.  He had Destiny run the numbers on a laptop she went and got from the van. 

Turns out that Kapler's advice was never proven because the wave runner guy was killed by Russian gangsters.  Kapler had Shasta and Destiny extract revenge from the gangster's family. 

Julius Caesar.

Otherwise this is a perfect post.

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16 minutes ago, ROMAD1 said:

I once ran into Gabe Kapler at a wave runner rental in St.Petersburg (not Russia).  He was reading Shakespeare's Julius Cesar.  His companions were two very attractive dark haired ladies wearing black dive vests and bikini bottoms.   He referred to one of the ladies as Shasta and the other as Destiny.   While he was there he instructed the wave runner owner that he could maximize his rentals if he extended the rental period during off-peak hours and allowed incremental rentals during peak hours to satisfy turnover demand.  He had Destiny run the numbers on a laptop she went and got from the van. 

Turns out that Kapler's advice was never proven because the wave runner guy was killed by Russian gangsters.  Kapler had Shasta and Destiny extract revenge from the gangster's family. 

I think it might be time to introduce Shasta and Destiny to the Adduci family.

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12 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

But to the extent there is blowback, well, Ron didn't appear to run his teams in the past using analytics, so I, for one, am not expecting it now despite assertions to the contrary.

 

I guess I still don't see the role of it for the manager, outside of it he is flat out undermining the organization's analytical push.  In the end, come opening day if he has 5 starting pitchers and one of them is refusing to listen to the advice of the analytical department, you have to keep starting him, assuming the GM won't make a move to deal with that situation.  

That's where I don't understand the 'he hasn't used analytics'.  All coaches do and always have.  The difference is they used data based on what they saw/perceived.  There still is value in that too and I think early on some of the 'old' managers felt that analytics didn't see the whole picture.  I saw some Gardenhire quotes that indicate he was one of those 'old' managers.  As long as he's on board with what his boss wants him to do, I don't see the issue.  

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I suspect he will only use data provided to him if it conforms with what he already believed.

That is what I mean by won't use analytics.  He will 'use' provided data if it makes his argument, ignore it if it doesn't - which is the same as not using them at all.

That written, it isn't a big deal.  They aren't going to be good when he is here.

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image.png.594ce14b71aecca188d86d1bf2ce619b.png

Anyone get one of these yet?  I was looking a players weekend one, but I guess they aren't ready yet.

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2 hours ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Honestly, this hire bums me out because I don't like Ron Gardenhire.  There is a part of me that almost wishes they committed fully and somehow hired Dusty Baker.

I will irrationally hate on Ron, but will try to make my posts sound rational and sound with that hatred buried underneath when criticizing him.

That is the best that I can promise at this time.

Not a fan, but don’t absolutely hate it.

Anybody but Dusty, he’s more of a pitcher killer than Leyland was. I blame him for Zimmermann’s decline, among others

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1 hour ago, ewsieg said:

Not sure I understand the blowback on this hire.  We're not winning anytime soon and the manager of the MLB team is the least important part of any organizations analytical process.  We're going to have a young team and he has experience in that, so i'm guessing that is what was determined to be the most important characteristic.

As for Kapler indicating he would not have accepted the job if it was offered over analytics, that's what seems worrisome to me.  Makes me wonder if he just doesn't think we're up to speed enough, or worse, does it mean he just didn't think we were pursuing enough.

I agree with you about the current manager hire and what the focus of the organization should be.

I am a bit concerned about the status of Caesar.  I have no idea how long it takes to build what they want.  So maybe I shouldn't be worried because I don't even know if its reasonable to be or not.

But I would think that, since they've been working on it for a while, there has to be some application of it that is usable right now.  Of it simply ins't complete, hopefully what has been completed can help direct the farm system in the right direction.

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17 hours ago, chasfh said:

Now I know the Tigers are not serious about analytics. 

https://puckettspond.com/2015/02/24/espn-ranks-minnesota-twins-use-analytics-low/

Very first paragraph:

Analytics are a big deal. Numbers never lie. Unless you are Ron Gardenhire who said “Numbers lie a lot. I have a hard time believing all that stuff.”

 

17 hours ago, Shelton said:

I just don’t think it matters all that much when it comes to the manager. 

I think it matters in that the Tigers would only hire a manager whose point of view comports with that of their front office. Gardenhire is on record just two years ago saying he doesn't believe "all that stuff". So if the Tigers were fully committing to becoming an analytics-forward organization, why would they hire a manager at the big league level who's on record as being against analytics?

Answer: they wouldn't. That would make no sense, even for a sub-par organization.

No matter how many triple digit percentages Lynn Henning throws at us, I've long been a skeptic that the Tigers were committed to catching up in the analytics arms race. Two big clues for me are (1) they rarely discuss their undertaking of efforts in this area, even to say how important it all is and that so much progress is being made; and (2) when they do discuss it, they take great care to qualify it all with statements that numbers are only a part of what they do, and scouting is still super important, and they don't want their scouts to worry their pretty little heads about numbers. In fact, they did so again just last month

(A third big clue, of course, is that even though the Tigers announced their move into analytics in November 2015, and then announced in October 2016 that "Caesar" was nearly complete, Ausmus leaked in his exit interviews that it wouldn't even be ready for use on the ground by 2018.)

Of course, I would never expect Ron Gardenhire (or any hire, for that matter) to single-handedly lead and organization out of the darkness of ignorance into the light of knowledge.  But I'm not analyzing this hire in terms of how the new manager will work with the numbers. I'm doing so in terms of what the hire says about where the front office stands on analytics. And by hiring an unabashedly anti-analytics manager, that tells me the Tigers just aren't taking analytics seriously.

Someone here posted that analytics are more applicable at the organization's development level than it is at the major league team level. That's wrong, but even setting that aside and assuming for the sake of discussion it's true, what's going to happen if a Tigers prospect comes up through the system buying into how analytics can help his decision-making on the field on the way up, only to get to the big club and be told by the manager that all those fancy-*** numbers don't mean squat? There would be cognitive dissonance at minimum, but worse, the right words from a respected erstwhile Manager of the Year who's anti-numbers could undo years of training such prospects to take in and utilize the information to their advantage.

Why would the Tigers set themselves up for that eventuality? I don't think they would. I think instead that Ron Gardenhire and the Tigers front office are basically on the same page regarding analytics: nice to have and all, I guess, but when it comes to making decisions on the ground, trust your instincts, your experience, your gut instead.

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1 minute ago, chasfh said:

 

I think it matters in that the Tigers would only hire a manager whose point of view comports with that of their front office. Gardenhire is on record just two years ago saying he doesn't believe "all that stuff". So if the Tigers were fully committing to becoming an analytics-forward organization, why would they hire a manager at the big league level who's on record against analytics?

Answer: they wouldn't. That would make no sense, even for a sub-par organization.

No matter how many triple digit percentages Lynn Henning throws at us, I've long been a skeptic that the Tigers were committed to catching up in the analytics arms race. Two big clues for me are (1) they rarely discuss their undertaking of efforts in this area, even to say how important it all is and so much progress is being made; and (2) when they do discuss it, they take great care to qualify it all with statements that numbers are only a part of what they do, and scouting is still super important, and they don't want their scouts to worry their pretty little heads about numbers. In fact, they did so again just last month

(A third big clue, of course, is that even though the Tigers announced their move into analytics in November 2015, and then announced in October 2016 that "Caesar" was nearly complete, Ausmus leaked in his exit interviews that it wouldn't even be ready for use on the ground by 2018.)

Of course, I would never expect Ron Gardenhire (or any hire, for that matter) to single-handedly lead and organization out of the darkness of ignorance into the light of knowledge.  But I'm not analyzing this hire in terms of how the new manager will work with the numbers. I'm doing so in terms of what the hire says about where the front office stands on analytics. And by hiring an unabashedly anti-analytics manager, that tells me the Tigers just aren't taking analytics seriously.

Someone here posted that analytics are more applicable at the organization's development level than it is at the major league team level. That's wrong, but even setting that aside and assuming for the sake of discussion it's true, what's going to happen if a Tigers prospect comes up through the system buying into how analytics can help his decision-making on the field on the way up, only to get to the big club and be told by the manager that all those fancy-*** numbers don't mean squat? There would be cognitive dissonance at minimum, but worse, the right words from a respected erstwhile Manager of the Year who's anti-numbers could undo years of training such prospects to take in and utilize the information to their advantage.

Why would the Tigers set themselves up for that eventuality? I don't think they would. I think instead that Ron Gardenhire and the Tigers front office are basically on the same page regarding analytics: nice to have and all, I guess, but when it comes to making decisions on the ground, trust your instincts, your experience, your gut instead.

maybe he had a change of heart being in Arizona...?  let's see what he said now in the press conference.

 

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1 hour ago, ewsieg said:

Not sure I understand the blowback on this hire.  We're not winning anytime soon and the manager of the MLB team is the least important part of any organizations analytical process.  We're going to have a young team and he has experience in that, so i'm guessing that is what was determined to be the most important characteristic.

As for Kapler indicating he would not have accepted the job if it was offered over analytics, that's what seems worrisome to me.  Makes me wonder if he just doesn't think we're up to speed enough, or worse, does it mean he just didn't think we were pursuing enough.

For my first serious post in this thread:

My blowback is that the people in charge of improving analytics and hiring the right manager when we might be good again, and for that matter, acquiring the players that would make this team good again, hired Ron Gardenhire.

I'm more worried about what that says about Al Avila than what it says about Ron Gardenhire.

My first thought is: "I don't know what I'm doing, I'll hire an old school retread because it worked in 2006, world series here we come"

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Gardy said first dept he went in today was the analytics department and he said he loves them and can't wait to start working with them.  He saw the value in AZ.  Sees lots of new ways to do things and says when you stop learning you're screwed and doesn't want to do that.

 

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 On the live feed just now he said that he likes analytics, and if you ignore stuff like that you get screwed, and he doesn’t want to get screwed. 

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Just now, Oblong said:

Gardy said first dept he went in today was the analytics department and he said he loves them and can't wait to start working with them.  He saw the value in AZ.  Sees lots of new ways to do things and says when you stop learning you're screwed and doesn't want to do that.

 

Great minds think alike

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46 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Julius Caesar.

Otherwise this is a perfect post.


For a few minutes Destinee and Destiny were two girls in the same post.   I hate to break the 4th wall but there it is.

 

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1 minute ago, ROMAD1 said:

For a few minutes Destinee and Destiny were two girls in the same post.   I hate to break the 4th wall but there it is.

Of the two options, good choice on sticking with Destiny.

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1 hour ago, ewsieg said:

Not sure I understand the blowback on this hire.  We're not winning anytime soon and the manager of the MLB team is the least important part of any organizations analytical process.  We're going to have a young team and he has experience in that, so i'm guessing that is what was determined to be the most important characteristic.

As for Kapler indicating he would not have accepted the job if it was offered over analytics, that's what seems worrisome to me.  Makes me wonder if he just doesn't think we're up to speed enough, or worse, does it mean he just didn't think we were pursuing enough.

I don't know that Kapler ever indicating that, so much as speculation that he wouldn't have because of being behind.

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Did Chris Ilitch just say that Al Avila asked him what his (Ilitch's) WAR was?

 

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44 minutes ago, diaspora04 said:

I think it might be time to introduce Shasta and Destiny to the Adduci family.

I just wonder if they are at the presser

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4 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Did Chris Ilitch just say that Al Avila asked him what his WAR was?

 

“WAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing! Say it again!”  — Joe Morgan

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15 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Someone here posted that analytics are more applicable at the organization's development level than it is at the major league team level. That's wrong, but even setting that aside

That's not wrong, so let's not set that aside. This is how Houston and the Dodgers are so good right now. ****, probably the Yankees and Cubs too.

Look at Alex Bregman, #2 overall pick. They immediately had him change his swing to generate loft. And the Dodgers are the king of player development, both in the minors and the majors. Gabe Kapler, head of player development, is big into analytics.

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1 minute ago, Who is the Drizzle? said:

That's not wrong, so let's not set that aside. This is how Houston and the Dodgers are so good right now. ****, probably the Yankees and Cubs too.

Look at Alex Bregman, #2 overall pick. They immediately had him change his swing to generate loft. And the Dodgers are the king of player development, both in the minors and the majors. Gabe Kapler, head of player development, is big into analytics.

I didn't say that analytics are not important at the development level. Quite the opposite: analytics are absolutely crucial at the development level.

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5 minutes ago, ROMAD1 said:

I just wonder if they are at the presser

I guess Shasta has died her hair.   She's got the team colors going though

WVE4BW_SLATE_1-display_large.jpg?v=14885

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