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The Official 2017-2018 Detroit Tigers Off-season Thread

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6 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

He can't field.

He can’t field 3B. Small sample size in LF. Perhaps he can learn to play a serviceable LF. 

Either way, his bat is improving and I believe it is primed to breakout. I hope he is traded to a certain team down I-75. 

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13 minutes ago, Yoda said:

All 12 would not. I'm ok with 2 or 3 every year, who know they are terrible, trying to lose. As the Tigers did last year. I don't think that would harm the sport at all. Nobody can prove they are/were trying to lose. 

Sure, if you wanna move the goal post to 12 teams trying to lose, that would be bad for the sport. 

I don't think it's good for even one team to be trying to lose.  What if two teams are battling for a wild card and one plays in a division where all the teams are trying to win and the other plays in a division where one or two teams are trying to lose?  Obviously there are going to be bad teams and imbalances every year, but teams shouldn't be trying to lose.  

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Nitpicking, but the TEAMS are not trying to lose, the front office is. 

The players and on field manager and coaches are trying to win every game. 

Because of that I don’t think it hurts the game. My favorite team has been tanking for 2 years now, it can be brutal to watch at times, but, I follow the draft really closely so I don’t mind too much. Anyways, you can tell the young players and fringey veterans are trying their hardest to succeed. 

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12 minutes ago, RedTeamGo! said:

He can’t field 3B. Small sample size in LF. Perhaps he can learn to play a serviceable LF. 

Either way, his bat is improving and I believe it is primed to breakout. I hope he is traded to a certain team down I-75. 

I am confident enough to say he is going to be a below average OF at best.

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Pipeline has a list of their top ten RHP prospects. None of our guys make the cut, though Manning is the one guy at the end to "Keep an Eye on"

 

 

Quote

 

Keep an eye on - Matt Manning, Tigers
Manning, the Tigers' first-round pick in 2016, has just five starts in full-season ball, so he clearly has a ways to go. But the 6-foot-6 former basketball standout has a ton of ceiling and a strong full season in 2018 could see him climb onto this list.


 

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1 hour ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

I am confident enough to say he is going to be a below average OF at best.

Well.......he's no Delmon Young.  

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Passan

Quote

There’s less interest in winning than I’ve ever witnessed before,” one union official said. “MLB has done a fantastic job of convincing the public that’s OK. I think fan bases are accepting of losing now. Sometimes they even want their team to lose.”

Whether on account of a rebuild or the desire to profit, at least eight teams have no intention of being serious players in the current free-agent market: the Atlanta Braves, Chicago White Sox, Cincinnati Reds, Detroit Tigers, Miami Marlins, Oakland A’s, Pittsburgh Pirates and Tampa Bay Rays. The Kansas City Royals and San Diego Padres could join them.

That’s 10 teams, a full third of MLB. The Marlins, Braves and Pirates haven’t spent a penny on a major league free agent this winter. Neither have the Rays nor the Baltimore Orioles. Both harbor playoff aspirations; each is waiting for the market to cave deeper. Players are panicking. Some are threatening to fire their agents if they don’t have jobs by the end of this week. It’s fertilizer for bargains.

Tearing down to build up is a business model; that it has the added benefits of job security for front offices and profits for ownership is a feature, not a bug. Efforts to discourage it in the basic agreement – flattening the gap in bonus-pool sizes domestically and internationally – had little effect.

Even if the union had sought greater anti-tanking provisions, perhaps this was preordained. The current generation of like-minded general managers had tired of a system that didn’t make sense to them. After the union’s power grab half a century ago, they were ready to take back the game.

 

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4 hours ago, Shelton said:

I won’t answer for Lee, but I can see an approach to 2018 that didn’t include tanking like they are doing right now. 

For example, don’t trade kinsler. Monitor the free agent market and sign a good player to a good deal, like one of the many outfielders available, instead of signing Martin. Maybe try to find some decent bullpen arms on a bargain. Sign a starting pitcher better than Ryan carpenter or whoever they signed. 

It wouldn’t be that impossible to squeeze a wild card team out of the group that entered this offseason if they were willing to spend a little bit in free agency. 

I don’t see it.  Not with the limited pitching on hand that can be considered reliable.

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2 hours ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

This never gets old.

young-lol.gif?w=640

Let’s be fair.  His guide dog abandoned him. 

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1 hour ago, Casimir said:

I don’t see it.  Not with the limited pitching on hand that can be considered reliable.

no - any ideas in that direction ended at 11:59 August 31 when JV said "yes".

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5 hours ago, Shelton said:

I won’t answer for Lee, but I can see an approach to 2018 that didn’t include tanking like they are doing right now. 

For example, don’t trade kinsler. Monitor the free agent market and sign a good player to a good deal, like one of the many outfielders available, instead of signing Martin. Maybe try to find some decent bullpen arms on a bargain. Sign a starting pitcher better than Ryan carpenter or whoever they signed. 

It wouldn’t be that impossible to squeeze a wild card team out of the group that entered this offseason if they were willing to spend a little bit in free agency. 

I am with you 100%.  The Bane approach to rebuilding ("crash this plane") seems like a mistake to me, as it guarantees at least a couple of very bad seasons, and you're still likely to need a fair amount of luck and/or significant FA $$ down the road to get back to the playoffs.

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FYI Pipeline did put out its top ten RHP prospects. They are doing every position a day through Jan. 28 when the top 100 will be unveiled. No Tigers in the RHP top 10, but there is this. 

 

Keep an eye on - Matt Manning, Tigers
Manning, the Tigers' first-round pick in 2016, has just five starts in full-season ball, so he clearly has a ways to go. But the 6-foot-6 former basketball standout has a ton of ceiling and a strong full season in 2018 could see him climb onto this list.

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6 hours ago, Shelton said:

I won’t answer for Lee, but I can see an approach to 2018 that didn’t include tanking like they are doing right now. 

For example, don’t trade kinsler. Monitor the free agent market and sign a good player to a good deal, like one of the many outfielders available, instead of signing Martin. Maybe try to find some decent bullpen arms on a bargain. Sign a starting pitcher better than Ryan carpenter or whoever they signed. 

It wouldn’t be that impossible to squeeze a wild card team out of the group that entered this offseason if they were willing to spend a little bit in free agency. 

Getting back into contention without spending crazy money was going to be a long shot.   Still, I would have liked to see them do something like what you said above.  At least you could hope that everything goes right and stay in the race for a while and have another firesale mid-season.  I understand why they didn't do it, but I am not a fan of tearing a team down to a skeleton.  

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1 hour ago, Casimir said:

I don’t see it.  Not with the limited pitching on hand that can be considered reliable.

The Tigers could have assembled a playoff-worthy pitching staff in 2017 and 2018 without a lot of expense; there are a number of relievers who could fill the Tigers' needs, in most cases for under $2M/year, and maybe with a $4-5M/year guy at the top of the food chain; then Greene can be used whereever he's needed rather than being stuck in the closer role for a crappy last-place team. 

The trouble is AA doesn't seem to be able to assemble pitching staffs and/or the management talent to use them properly.

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4 minutes ago, Keepleyland2 said:

FYI Pipeline did put out its top ten RHP prospects. They are doing every position a day through Jan. 28 when the top 100 will be unveiled. No Tigers in the RHP top 10, but there is this. 

 

Keep an eye on - Matt Manning, Tigers
Manning, the Tigers' first-round pick in 2016, has just five starts in full-season ball, so he clearly has a ways to go. But the 6-foot-6 former basketball standout has a ton of ceiling and a strong full season in 2018 could see him climb onto this list.

I was directly behind home plate for Manning's playoff game where he went 7 and K'd 11 at the end of 2017.  He started in the 91 range and worked up to 96 by the 5th inning.  He had really nice off-speed pitches with good control.  I think he's going to be at least a good #2 starter by 2020.

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1 hour ago, Casimir said:

I don’t see it.  Not with the limited pitching on hand that can be considered reliable.

I don’t think it would be likely, but they would have a fighting chance. Pitching is so unpredictable. It can surprise you in positive ways, too. It doesn’t always have to disappoint. 

My point is mostly that with the free agent market being the way it is, the tigers could have decided to spend 30-40 million and parched a few holes. And then all you need is a bit of luck. I don’t think the current approach gives them even the slightest chance, even with a lot of luck. 

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4 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

 

The Tigers could have assembled a playoff-worthy pitching staff in 2017 and 2018 without a lot of expense; there are a number of relievers who could fill the Tigers' needs, in most cases for under $2M/year, and maybe with a $4-5M/year guy at the top of the food chain; then Greene can be used whereever he's needed rather than being stuck in the closer role for a crappy last-place team. 

The trouble is AA doesn't seem to be able to assemble pitching staffs and/or the management talent to use them properly.

Fiers seems to have a chance to be a solid value signing.

Miley or Buchholtz or Tillman or someone who signs a 1-year deal is going to have a real good year. The hard part is figuring out who.

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2 hours ago, kdog said:

Passan

 

this is what I found interesting. The Fangraphs crowd loves "efficient" winning. The Giants are the team that won 3 titles in the last decade and they don't get half the love the Astros or Cubs get.

...So if what separates most teams is negligible, how, then, in addition to winning, can executives show they aren’t fungible?

“Brian Cashman has been one of the best GMs for 20 years, and this is the first year he’s really been recognized as a good GM. Why?” one official said. “Because [the Yankees] cut payroll. Because he had more homegrown talent, as if that means a damn thing. And because you can’t be a genius if you spend money. You can only be a genius if your team wins through not spending money. And that’s ridiculous. It’s absolutely ridiculous. But they’ve done a good job in conditioning the whole world to see it that way.”

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With how little Granderson got and how little it took prospect wise to get McCutchen we could have gotten both of them and kept Kinsler and "went for it"(I still think we would be a ways off but we'd have an outside chance of a WC) for relatively cheap.   An outfield of Granderson, McCutchen and Castellanos would be atrocious defensively but could be pretty good offensively.  

If you squint A lineup of Kinsler, Nick, Cabrera, McCutchen, Victor, Granderson, Candalario, McCann and Iglesias could be pretty good if you get a break out from Candelario and Miggy bounces back to his old self.  

 

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I love Granderson but he looked washed up with the Dodgers.  But yes there is probably some tread left on McCutcheon.  I had that same thought today, that under different circumstances the Tigers could possibly have acquired him (and paid him only $12.5 million in 2018).

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2 hours ago, kdog said:

Passan

 

I don't know what it would look like, but a system where players get paid during the years they actually produce would make more sense.

Plus it's not had to see the role analytics are playing now. A 4-6 WAR star two-way player in his pre 30 years may still look like a similar hitter from ~30-33, but is may be a much worse fielder in a game where more players now tend to bulk up for power the older they get,  and that recognition is probably starting to play into the value calculation. 

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1 hour ago, RatkoVarda said:

Fiers seems to have a chance to be a solid value signing.

Miley or Buchholtz or Tillman or someone who signs a 1-year deal is going to have a real good year. The hard part is figuring out who.

I would go for both of these: J Garcia, J Vargas, 2 WAR guys for 2 years and maybe $8-10M/yr. 

Keep Fulmer  (3 WAR),  Norris or Boyd (1.5), Fiers (1), add Garcia (2) and Vargas (2), keep Zimm in reserve along with some others (another 2 - 3 WAR), and you have a 12 WAR staff.....a decent/cheap bullpen could get you 2 - 3 WAR, and it's a 14 - 15 WAR pitching staff, more than good enough to hang around 500 with a 20 - 22 WAR position group, which is absolutely doable with several other key acquisitions.

I would be interested in Buchholz as a relief pitcher....by focusing on the cutter and the 4-seamer (and mix in the splitter a little bit) and scrapping all of the other pitches, he could reduce his pitch count, push his velo up to 93 and generate 10-11% swings/misses, and be a real weapon.

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47 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

With how little Granderson got and how little it took prospect wise to get McCutchen we could have gotten both of them and kept Kinsler and "went for it"(I still think we would be a ways off but we'd have an outside chance of a WC) for relatively cheap.   An outfield of Granderson, McCutchen and Castellanos would be atrocious defensively but could be pretty good offensively.  

If you squint A lineup of Kinsler, Nick, Cabrera, McCutchen, Victor, Granderson, Candalario, McCann and Iglesias could be pretty good if you get a break out from Candelario and Miggy bounces back to his old self. 

If you were serious about contending, you move Nick into the DH role (add 2 WAR v where he is in RF), play Grandy in RF (about the same as Nick overall for $5M), keep Victor around just in case, put Mahtook and Martin in CF (no difference), and Cutch in LF (add 3 WAR for $15M).  You'd still have to build up the bullpen (you could add 2 - 4 WAR pretty fast/cheap for maybe $8M) and the rotation (with Vargas and Garcia I think you'd add about 2 WAR for about $15M), and you're possibly a 500 team.  That's about 10 WAR added and an outside shot for about $40M.  I think it's a better shot than intentionally tanking hard for 2 - 3+ years and praying for a draft legend, but I don't own the team, so WDIK.

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