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The Official 2017-2018 Detroit Tigers Off-season Thread

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8 minutes ago, Nastradamus said:

Jesus, you dump Zimmerman if you can. Next...

Should we cut Zimmermann and eat the money? If not, what's the minimum return you want?

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Just now, chasfh said:

Should we cut Zimmermann and eat the money? If not, what's the minimum return you want?

Of course there's a minimum, but its very low. If they eat ten mil and throw a crappy prospect its an absolute yes. I mean, we wouldn't pick up Anibal's option for 11 mil, so that's a bare minimum I'd say. 

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32 minutes ago, Nastradamus said:

Of course there's a minimum, but its very low. If they eat ten mil and throw a crappy prospect its an absolute yes. I mean, we wouldn't pick up Anibal's option for 11 mil, so that's a bare minimum I'd say. 

3/$74M for Zimmermann.  Throwing $10M a team is going to move him?

What would Zimmermann get out on the open market right now?

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55 minutes ago, Yoda said:

Also, Shelton is rumored to soon be released due to sexual allegations. 

Hey, I thought what happens at sprinkler parties stays at sprinkler parties?

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I think he meant the acquiring team would pay him 10 million, meaning we would eat the majority of the contract. 

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43 minutes ago, Nastradamus said:

Of course there's a minimum, but its very low. If they eat ten mil and throw a crappy prospect its an absolute yes. I mean, we wouldn't pick up Anibal's option for 11 mil, so that's a bare minimum I'd say. 

OK, I see, that's cool.

I equate a crappy prospect with a guy off the street, meaning Lotto ticket, meaning practically no value. Considering that and eating $64 million of the $74 million, I see practically no difference between this and simply cutting Zimmermann.

If my choice came down to your deal or hold him, I would prefer to hold him and run him out there every fifth day for four months and seeing what I get then. 

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1 hour ago, Yoda said:

Also, Shelton is rumored to soon be released due to sexual allegations. 

It's not true. She is just looking for attention.  She's a White Sox fan.    

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5 hours ago, sabretooth said:

I have seen some really stupid people get hung up on Lee, because those people were stupid and could not handle a rational argument.

So what the **** is your excuse?  I am not blowing smoke and speak fact when I say that you are obviously very smart and raise good arguments. 

Nobody here disses your intel, certainly not Lee...but you seem to take every statement that you disagree with as a personal attack....even your first posts on topics sometimes lately contains ridicule, disdain, personal provocations and insults.

Your personal attacks on peoples motivations are way too frequent.  We have to be able to disagree around here without things turning into a family Thanksgiving turkey brawl.

There has to be some terms of endearment.

Honestly, I decided a month or two ago that I spend too much time on this board for what I was getting out of it and I should stop. Unfortunately, when I got bored I still checked in. But maybe that filter I usually have is gone because I don't care anymore. Or maybe I hated myself for logging back on and that seeped into my posting.

At any rate, all of that is my problem and I've taken the proper steps (hopefully) to avoid this place in the future. Not to sound dramatic, and everything is fine, but I won't be posting here in the future. Sorry for yesterday.

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I spend too much time here too and am planning to leave.  I know You guys don't think I can do it, but this is it.  Really, I don't need this place.  I am gone...right after the Rule 5 draft.  I promise.    

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1 hour ago, Casimir said:

3/$74M for Zimmermann.  Throwing $10M a team is going to move him?

What would Zimmermann get out on the open market right now?

Doug Fister just got 1 yr/$4M.  I can't imagine that Zimmermannnnnnnnnnnnnn..... would get much more than that, if even that much.

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2 hours ago, Casimir said:

3/$74M for Zimmermann.  Throwing $10M a team is going to move him?

What would Zimmermann get out on the open market right now?

No, we eat 64

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8 hours ago, djhutch said:

I don't know why fans shouldn't give a **** about a team's payroll.  Speaking for myself - It matters to me in that I don't want to see them wasting big money on marginal talent. I think it directly impacts their ability to compete, & in the current scenario with a rebuild that is even more important. I don't really care as much about the owner, or if they make money or not. I care about it in terms of how it impacts the team's roster & ability to compete.

You are 100% correct....my fault for not being clear....I completely agree (and have said many times in the past) that $$ should be reasonably related to the expected performance from a given player, and I think that most fans can "smell" a bad deal. 

It gets tricky when you are trying to evaluate a long-term contract (more than a couple of years), just because of injuries and other "big" potential unknowns, especially where starting pitchers and/or players in their 30's are concerned, but if a position player in his 20's is offered a 4 year deal, serious fans have a variety of tools at their disposal to evaluate whether that is a good deal, and absent acts of God and major injuries, those fans will more often than not be reasonably accurate (if not precise) about the relative value of the deal.

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Putting aside individual contracts for a moment, the main reason why I don't trust people's evaluations of team financial capacity/flexibility/etc is because we don't have precise information about the real parameters.  For starters, profit/loss estimates for a team don't take into account the owner's other holdings and how/when/how long/how much he/she/they might wish to subsidize their MLB team with earnings from other holdings.

Moreover, what happened in 2016 may give you a picture of sorts about 2017 or 2018, but finances and P/L parameters can change a lot from year to year in ways that have nothing to do with payroll or other public deals.  A team that grossed $400M in 2016 might see $10's of millions of dollars in variation in 2017 and 2018 that folks outside of the owners circle would not know about or be able to predict, like major changes in accounting/financial assumptions, refinancing of debt, other non-payroll contracts, insurance rates, merchandise revenue, and so on.  The aggregate variation from these more-or-less "hidden" factors cannot in my opinion be gleaned from the rifle-shot guesstimates published by Forbes.

If I had to guess, the Forbes information and other published financial information would give me a pretty good idea of a team's payroll capacity for the next year or so within $20M or within 10% or so.  That's not bad, but that's not precise enough for someone to say "they can't afford another $10+ million player" with any real credibility in my mind.

Bottom line is that if the owner is willing to write the check, there is no credible way for "us" to say "that doesn't work financially for him". 

As I mentioned above, I DO think "we" have enough information to evaluate whether a given $$ amount for a given player a reasonable amount to pay for the expected performance, and/or whether we need that performance to be added, and/or whether it's the highest/best use of $$ vs. getting another kind of player/performance.

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By the way, the same logic of uncertainty applies in the other direction: the decisions of the owner to spend or not spend $$ notwithstanding, I don't think that "we" generally cannot say with credibility: "the owner can afford another $20M contract!" any moreso than I could say that he couldn't.

In both cases however there are outliers.  I mean, if a team has half the payroll of everybody else but an average gross income, that would indicate to me that the owner should have some room to spend. 

By the same token, the data definitely supported the assertion that Mr Ilitch was losing a lot of money on the team and that the spend would likely take a big hit after his demise....I think the argument in Mr I's case was "if he doesn't care whether he can afford it, why should I?" (as long as the contracts are reasonably related to expected performance.  The Miggy contract probably isn't a real problem if he keeps hitting at superstar levels until age 36...even with a rebuilding team (and perhaps especially with a rebuilding team).

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4 hours ago, tiger337 said:

I spend too much time here too and am planning to leave.  I know You guys don't think I can do it, but this is it.  Really, I don't need this place.  I am gone...right after the Rule 5 draft.  I promise.    

This is serious.  This is no idle threat.  People who are leaving always come in here to post that they are leaving, to get the last word in.  I know because I've done it.

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5 hours ago, Nastradamus said:

No, we eat 64

Not much difference between 3/64 and 3/74.  At that point, might as well keep him and see if the new coaching staff can coax something out of him to where he is a salvageable trade piece.  At worst, he enhances the Tigers’ chances at high draft picks.

So in the same thread it has been suggested to bring 362 year old Martinez back for spring training just to see if there is something there yet throw away the longer term commitment that might actually have something left of value?  Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t get it.

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23 minutes ago, Casimir said:

Not much difference between 3/64 and 3/74.  At that point, might as well keep him and see if the new coaching staff can coax something out of him to where he is a salvageable trade piece.  At worst, he enhances the Tigers’ chances at high draft picks.

So in the same thread it has been suggested to bring 362 year old Martinez back for spring training just to see if there is something there yet throw away the longer term commitment that might actually have something left of value?  Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t get it.

Have you sought counseling for your hoarding issues?

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3 hours ago, Casimir said:

Not much difference between 3/64 and 3/74.  At that point, might as well keep him and see if the new coaching staff can coax something out of him to where he is a salvageable trade piece.  At worst, he enhances the Tigers’ chances at high draft picks.

So in the same thread it has been suggested to bring 362 year old Martinez back for spring training just to see if there is something there yet throw away the longer term commitment that might actually have something left of value?  Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t get it.

I don't want Victor either. Clear room for young guys to play. Start fresh as much as  possible. 

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I heart Emily...

Emily Walden of The Athletic reports that Steven Moya will sign a one-year deal with the Chunichi Dragons of the Nippon Professional Baseball League.

Moya was recently outrighted from the 40-man roster. Once a former top prospect in the Detroit system, the 25-year-old has shown big-time power in his bat, but has struggled with anything that isn't straight. He'll look to resurrect his stock by performing well in the NPB like several other sluggers have done.
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8 hours ago, Nastradamus said:

I don't want Victor either. Clear room for young guys to play. Start fresh as much as  possible. 

The Martinez issue is easy.  One year remaining, and its his last contract.  Nobody is going to trade for him.  His only conceivable role is DH.  Cabrera could use some days at DH every once in while.  That roster spot should go to a younger player.  There are OFs of questionable ability, and its probably time for a couple to be seen.

There aren't a whole lot of SP options ready for rotation.  We can kid ourselves about Farmer and Lewicki and whoever, I suppose.  But someone needs to fill in a spot with Fulmer, Boyd, and Norris.  Why bother moving Zimmermann when the savings of $10M is likely to be used on some other donkey of questionable merit? 

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