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The Official 2017-2018 Detroit Tigers Off-season Thread

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1 minute ago, Who is the Drizzle? said:

half your posts in this thread are about how much it sucks when teams tank and fans suck that root for them to lose and blah blah blah.

and how terrible it'd be if we got rid of someone to save money because you don't care about money.

give me a break. you're being a wet blanket.

I actually think I have been pretty positive here over the years.  I am not a fan boy though and will be critical from time to time..  I don't get what is so negative about thinking  the Tigers should keep Zimmermann. There were several other people who said they should keep him too.  As for the draft order thing, I wasn't even the first person who brought it up, Someone else proposed a different type of order and keepleyland said that was stupid.  I suggested that it wasn't such a bad idea and then the debate began and developed into something else as debates will on this board.  I think you are overreacting.  

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8 minutes ago, MDMAzing said:

Are the Tigers going to cut me a check when they save $10 million total(if they are lucky) over the next 3 years on the JZ trade?  If not, then who gives a ****? Why would any fan care? That extra money savings will have zero impact on the product on the field over the next three years.  Literally none.  All its going to do is keep a few extra million in the pocket of a billionaire.  Whoop de do.

Wow, we agree!

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4 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

I actually think I have been pretty positive here over the years.  I am not a fan boy though and will be critical from time to time..  I don't get what is so negative about thinking  the Tigers should keep Zimmermann. There were several other people who said they should keep him too.  As for the draft order thing, I wasn't even the first person who brought it up, Someone else proposed a different type of order and keepleyland said that was stupid.  I suggested that it wasn't such a bad idea and then the debate began and developed into something else as debates will on this board.  I think you are overreacting.  

I will agree that our conversations have been a travesty. Really a ****ty discourse. Neither one of us seems to be able to let something go especially when it's trivial.

Definitely not worth either of our time.

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29 minutes ago, Who is the Drizzle? said:

I will agree that our conversations have been a travesty. Really a ****ty discourse. Neither one of us seems to be able to let something go especially when it's trivial.

Definitely not worth either of our time.

Agreed.  

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6 hours ago, Who is the Drizzle? said:

I hound people when they're dicks. I will fully admit that.

I was joking earlier but you took it seriously so I went with it.

But this is you in this thread:

Hey we got the #1 pick! Lee: actually, that sucks.

Hey, some team might foolishly take Znn! Lee: actually, that sucks.

Yeah, it's about time somebody called out Lee for being a dick and for engaging in stupid arguments.  Coming from you that really means a lot.

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5 hours ago, Who is the Drizzle? said:

I will agree that our conversations have been a travesty. Really a ****ty discourse. Neither one of us seems to be able to let something go especially when it's trivial.

Definitely not worth either of our time.

I have seen some really stupid people get hung up on Lee, because those people were stupid and could not handle a rational argument.

So what the **** is your excuse?  I am not blowing smoke and speak fact when I say that you are obviously very smart and raise good arguments. 

Nobody here disses your intel, certainly not Lee...but you seem to take every statement that you disagree with as a personal attack....even your first posts on topics sometimes lately contains ridicule, disdain, personal provocations and insults.

Your personal attacks on peoples motivations are way too frequent.  We have to be able to disagree around here without things turning into a family Thanksgiving turkey brawl.

There has to be some terms of endearment.

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6 hours ago, MDMAzing said:

Are the Tigers going to cut me a check when they save $10 million total(if they are lucky) over the next 3 years on the JZ trade?  If not, then who gives a ****? Why would any fan care? That extra money savings will have zero impact on the product on the field over the next three years.  Literally none.  All its going to do is keep a few extra million in the pocket of a billionaire.  Whoop de do.

Qft

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9 hours ago, sabretooth said:

Putting aside the owner or anyone directly paid by the owner, nobody else should basically give a **** about a team's payroll or financial flexibility or any of that stuff, because none of us really have any idea how to relate the owner's finances to the owner's desire to spend or the owner's desire to spend to the team's payroll.

 

I don't know why fans shouldn't give a **** about a team's payroll.  Speaking for myself - It matters to me in that I don't want to see them wasting big money on marginal talent. I think it directly impacts their ability to compete, & in the current scenario with a rebuild that is even more important. I don't really care as much about the owner, or if they make money or not. I care about it in terms of how it impacts the team's roster & ability to compete.

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2 hours ago, djhutch said:

I don't know why fans shouldn't give a **** about a team's payroll.  Speaking for myself - It matters to me in that I don't want to see them wasting big money on marginal talent. I think it directly impacts their ability to compete, & in the current scenario with a rebuild that is even more important. I don't really care as much about the owner, or if they make money or not. I care about it in terms of how it impacts the team's roster & ability to compete.

I guess I worry about a team's payroll in these parameters:

  • Every team has a cap in mind.  And there are situations where the cap might be extended a bit.  But every team generally has a finite amount for payroll for multiple seasons outward.
  • Opportunity cost.  $1 spent on one player is $1 not available for any other player.
  • Contract value vs projected output.
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11 minutes ago, Casimir said:

I guess I worry about a team's payroll in these parameters:

  • Every team has a cap in mind.

and this is where a  difference comes in. Is it more true that owners only win as much as they budget, or that their budget is determined by their drive to win? There is a continuum there.

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9 hours ago, MDMAzing said:

Are the Tigers going to cut me a check when they save $10 million total(if they are lucky) over the next 3 years on the JZ trade? 

No, nor should they.

I am far more deserving of the $10M as a fan.

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59 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

No, nor should they.

I am far more deserving of the $10M as a fan.

Bull****.  It should go to Shelton first.

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1 hour ago, Gehringer_2 said:

and this is where a  difference comes in. Is it more true that owners only win as much as they budget, or that their budget is determined by their drive to win? There is a continuum there.

No question that there can be flex to the cap.  It depends upon the franchise and the situation.

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In the abstract, I care more about the payroll under Chris Ilitch than under Mike, because Mike had a personal mission to spend our way to a pennant, and I suspect Chris does not.

That said, I don't think we should deal Zimmermann only for salary relief. All that does is put money in Chris Ilitch's pocket without doing me any good as a fan. One might counter that every little bit helps and the savings will show up in the budget later, but we don't know that about Chris Ilitch as an owner. Dumping Zimmermann at the absolute lowest point of his career to save money strikes me as the ultimate in dealing from weakness.

I think we have literally nothing to lose by sending Zimmermann out to the mound for the next four months and hoping for the same guy the Nationals had, at which point we could probably make at least a halfway decent deal. The only risk is losing everything on his entire remaining contract, which I could see not impacting the Tigers rebuild one whit. 

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It's likely, yes, but not a guarantee. There's a chance Zimmermann recovers at least enough to make a better deal than we could now, and as long as that's true, cutting bait on him for basically no reason but to help Chris's net worth doesn't appeal to me as a Tiger fan. I acknowledge this is a minority opinion.

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44 minutes ago, Casimir said:

Bull****.  It should go to Shelton first.

Shelton won't spend it either.  Give it to sabertooth.  

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2 minutes ago, chasfh said:

It's likely, yes, but not a guarantee. There's a chance Zimmermann recovers at least enough to make a better deal than we could now, and as long as that's true, cutting bait on him for basically no reason but to help Chris's net worth doesn't appeal to me as a Tiger fan. I acknowledge this is a minority opinion.

I don’t think it’s a minority opinion. 

But yeah, it’s not a guarantee that zimmermann will be trash forever. He could in theory rebound into a useful pitcher. 

But it’s also not a guarantee that salary relief will simply go toward ilitch’s net worth. It could be that the team has a revenue based budget (whether we like that or not), and those savings would allow spending on other things within that budget. 

We don’t really know. If Avila ends up trading him for salary relief, my belief would be that he did so because salary relief is of some importance to the org. 

If Chris tells Al behind closed doors that there is no budget other than staying below the luxury tax and that the focus should be on doing what they can to win a championship as early as possible, then Al should definitely hang on to zimmermann and hope that he rebounds. 

If chris tells Al that the team needs to operate in the black, then Al should consider making moves to save money if he needs to use that money elsewhere. 

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5 minutes ago, Shelton said:

I don’t think it’s a minority opinion. 

But yeah, it’s not a guarantee that zimmermann will be trash forever. He could in theory rebound into a useful pitcher. 

But it’s also not a guarantee that salary relief will simply go toward ilitch’s net worth. It could be that the team has a revenue based budget (whether we like that or not), and those savings would allow spending on other things within that budget. 

We don’t really know. If Avila ends up trading him for salary relief, my belief would be that he did so because salary relief is of some importance to the org. 

If Chris tells Al behind closed doors that there is no budget other than staying below the luxury tax and that the focus should be on doing what they can to win a championship as early as possible, then Al should definitely hang on to zimmermann and hope that he rebounds. 

If chris tells Al that the team needs to operate in the black, then Al should consider making moves to save money if he needs to use that money elsewhere. 

All very sensical. But as a fan, sending Zimmermann and cash somewhere for nothing in return, especially without specifying what the savings will be used for, would be a slap in my face as a fan, regardless of what Chris tells Al behind closed doors. I can only respond to what I see and hear, so I'd want to hear that there's a there there in such a salary dump, rather than an implied unspoken "trust us".

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15 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

Shelton won't spend it either.  Give it to sabertooth.  

Also, Shelton is rumored to soon be released due to sexual allegations. 

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