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The Official 2017-2018 Detroit Tigers Off-season Thread

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2 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

I believe that pyro's take on the financial angle of major league baseball is the most accurate.

Basically teams are toys of the uber-rich; when they feel confident enough to spend $$ they will spend it.  When they don't they won't.  

Putting aside the owner or anyone directly paid by the owner, nobody else should basically give a **** about a team's payroll or financial flexibility or any of that stuff, because none of us really have any idea how to relate the owner's finances to the owner's desire to spend or the owner's desire to spend to the team's payroll. 

Sometimes it seems to me that even the GM doesn't really know when the owner is going to call and say "go get Prince!" or "Go get Upton!"....or when the owner is going to give up the ghost and say "get to Wilson and tell him to sell!".....so how the **** are we supposed to know?

That sounds nice and your rant was great but actual evidence has shown Mike Ilitch was the exception, not the rule.

You might be right with some random sheikh buying a soccer team, but American owners want to make money. They are far more like Stan Kroenke than Sheikh Mansour. It's all about the bottom line.

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19 minutes ago, Who is the Drizzle? said:

That sounds nice and your rant was great but actual evidence has shown Mike Ilitch was the exception, not the rule.

 

A very important exception in regards to MotownSports discussions.  

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18 minutes ago, Who is the Drizzle? said:

That sounds nice and your rant was great but actual evidence has shown Mike Ilitch was the exception, not the rule.

You might be right with some random sheikh buying a soccer team, but American owners want to make money. They are far more like Stan Kroenke than Sheikh Mansour. It's all about the bottom line.

Owners care about money at some level, or else they wouldn't be filthy rich.  But there are far more reliable methods for the rich to make money (real estate for example).

Just 15 years ago, most teams were in the red.  Now, all but a few are in the black, but spending has skyrocketed to the moon....but revenues have made it all the way to Mars.

Owners want to make money but if they feel confident in their ability to win they are going to spend more $$, as much as it takes.  Right now most can have their cake and eat it too....when the revenues even out (and they should, eventually), you'll see a lot of owners continue to increase spending even when it goes beyond their means.

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I'm with Lee in terms of the fact that most teams/owners have enough money to ignore the rules at any point they want, so trying to do any useful analysis is like the old days of watching to see what order the hats were in along the Kremlin wall at the May day parade - we basically have zero clue as to what moves these guys to either spend or trim sails. A few of the smaller market teams like the Royals - yeah the limits of their operation are more transparent. But for any of the ownership groups with assets in the 10-11 digit range, decisions like paying the luxury tax comes at a price most of them put far below their pride (or vanity). If an owner is a squeeze - he might be cutting from a team with a 30 million payroll. If he's Mike Ilitch or George Steinbrenner, who knows what he might decide to do to take a shot at a brass ring. We seldom have enough information for discussion about ownership motivations or financial status to very well informed,  so I'm pretty uninterested in speculation about it.

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18 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

Owners care about money at some level, or else they wouldn't be filthy rich.  But there are far more reliable methods for the rich to make money (real estate for example).

Just 15 years ago, most teams were in the red.  Now, all but a few are in the black, but spending has skyrocketed to the moon....but revenues have made it all the way to Mars.

Owners want to make money but if they feel confident in their ability to win they are going to spend more $$, as much as it takes.  Right now most can have their cake and eat it too....when the revenues even out (and they should, eventually), you'll see a lot of owners continue to increase spending even when it goes beyond their means.

I mean look at this list. 25/30 teams made over $10M in 2016, and most made a lot more. ****, Houston's owner didn't want to take on a majority of JV's salary until the clubhouse half revolted and an act of god guilted him into it.

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8 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

I'm with Lee in terms of the fact that most teams/owners have enough money to ignore the rules at any point they want, so trying to do any useful analysis is like the old days of watching to see what order the hats were in along the Kremlin wall at the May day parade - we basically have zero clue as to what moves these guys to either spend or trim sails. A few of the smaller market teams like the Royals - yeah the limits of their operation are more transparent. But for any of the ownership groups with assets in the 10-11 digit range, decisions like paying the luxury tax comes at a price most of them put far below their pride (or vanity). If an owner is a squeeze - he might be cutting from a team with a 30 million payroll. If he's Mike Ilitch or George Steinbrenner, who knows what he might decide to do to take a shot at a brass ring. We seldom have enough information for discussion about ownership motivations or financial status to very well informed,  so I'm pretty uninterested in speculation about it.

To have Gehringer backing me up on something just makes my day.  This is a huge boost to my self esteem.  

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37 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

A very important exception in regards to MotownSports discussions.  

Hey, I'm not going to lie, I thought it was great that our owner was spending more of his own money than everyone else. But he's passed, and Chris is not Mike. And now we have contracts that you couldn't pay teams $50M to take, and an owner that's just like 28 of the other 29 MLB owners.

That's just reality for us now, same as it is for 28 other teams. Get used to it, or I guess start watching the Dodgers. Altho it wouldn't surprise me if they cut $50M from their payroll between now and 2019.

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1 minute ago, Who is the Drizzle? said:

Hey, I'm not going to lie, I thought it was great that our owner was spending more of his own money than everyone else. But he's passed, and Chris is not Mike. And now we have contracts that you couldn't pay teams $50M to take, and an owner that's just like 28 of the other 29 MLB owners.

That's just reality for us now, same as it is for 28 other teams. Get used to it, or I guess start watching the Dodgers. Altho it wouldn't surprise me if they cut $50M from their payroll between now and 2019.

I have rooted for plenty of crappy, low roll payroll Tigers teams in my time.  I will have no problem adjusting.  

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5 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

I have rooted for plenty of crappy, low roll payroll Tigers teams in my time.  I will have no problem adjusting.  

Agreed. People are freaking out with having Fulmer as ACE of the staff. I recall when Brian Moehler and John " the hat" Doherty were.

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32 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

I have rooted for plenty of crappy, low roll payroll Tigers teams in my time.  I will have no problem adjusting.  

I guess not, but you seem to be kicking and screaming more than others.

I mean we get the #1 overall draft pick and a month later you propose changing the draft rules! What is that?!! That's not being a Tigers fan! That's the opposite!

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Just now, Who is the Drizzle? said:

I guess not, but you seem to be kicking and screaming more than others.

I mean we get the #1 overall draft pick and a month later you propose changing the draft rules! What is that?!! That's not being a Tigers fan! That's the opposite!

I was a Tigers fan before you were born son!   I followed them through their 70s drought and then the one from the late 80s to the early 2000's.  I was there every year rarely missing a game.  

The thing is I am also a baseball fan.  I don't base my opinions on what's good or bad for the game based on what's good for the Tigers.  This is not Big 10 football.

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A lot of people kicked and screamed about Mike Ilitch buying a high-priced team.  They were more guilty of thinking like fantasy owners than I was.  I was simply happy that we had better players and enjoyed it while it lasted.

I understand that sucking vs. winning would have given us higher draft picks....but we would have won less and sucked more, and those picks wouldn't necessarily have put us in any better position today relative to the future.

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1 hour ago, Who is the Drizzle? said:

I mean look at this list. 25/30 teams made over $10M in 2016, and most made a lot more. ****, Houston's owner didn't want to take on a majority of JV's salary until the clubhouse half revolted and an act of god guilted him into it.

That has never been the case before....spending has increased dramatically but has not kept pace in recent years with the huge increase in revenue....things will equal out again.....spending will keep increasing and revenue will probably flatten, especially if/when the next big recession hits.

History suggests that when owners have money, they spend it, and then some....speculating about motives can be fun, but people moralizing about how owners need to be tightwads for the sake of their own profitability is ridiculous.

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1 hour ago, Gehringer_2 said:

I'm with Lee in terms of the fact that most teams/owners have enough money to ignore the rules at any point they want, so trying to do any useful analysis is like the old days of watching to see what order the hats were in along the Kremlin wall at the May day parade - we basically have zero clue as to what moves these guys to either spend or trim sails. A few of the smaller market teams like the Royals - yeah the limits of their operation are more transparent. But for any of the ownership groups with assets in the 10-11 digit range, decisions like paying the luxury tax comes at a price most of them put far below their pride (or vanity). If an owner is a squeeze - he might be cutting from a team with a 30 million payroll. If he's Mike Ilitch or George Steinbrenner, who knows what he might decide to do to take a shot at a brass ring. We seldom have enough information for discussion about ownership motivations or financial status to very well informed,  so I'm pretty uninterested in speculation about it.

Yep. 

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58 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

I have rooted for plenty of crappy, low roll payroll Tigers teams in my time.  I will have no problem adjusting.  

I will have a problem adjusting if being crappy becomes the norm.

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19 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

I was a Tigers fan before you were born son!   I followed them through their 70s drought and then the one from the late 80s to the early 2000's.  I was there every year rarely missing a game.  

The thing is I am also a baseball fan.  I don't base my opinions on what's good or bad for the game based on what's good for the Tigers.  This is not Big 10 football.

Yes, I remember you complaining every year about the draft order.

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1 minute ago, sabretooth said:

I will have a problem adjusting if being crappy becomes the norm.

I expect them to be bad for a while.  It's going come down to finding some players that I enjoy following both in the minors and majors.  There will less sitting down and watching TV for three hours and more listening to the radio.  

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14 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

That has never been the case before....spending has increased dramatically but has not kept pace in recent years with the huge increase in revenue....things will equal out again.....spending will keep increasing and revenue will probably flatten, especially if/when the next big recession hits.

History suggests that when owners have money, they spend it, and then some....speculating about motives can be fun, but people moralizing about how owners need to be tightwads for the sake of their own profitability is ridiculous.

Who is moralizing? Give me a break. Owners are greedy billionaires, to think money doesn't matter to them is kind of ridiculous. That's the reality we live in.

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1 minute ago, Who is the Drizzle? said:

Yes, I remember you complaining every year about the draft order.

It's not that big of a deal.  There was no reason for me to bring it up before. The fact that the Tigers got the number one pick and lots of fans rooted for them to lose brought it to my attention.  

LOL at Drizzle questioning my fanhood.  LOL 

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Just now, tiger337 said:

It's not that big of a deal.  There was no reason for me to bring it up before. The fact that the Tigers got the number one pick and lots of fans rooted for them to lose brought it to my attention.  

LOL at Drizzle questioning my fanhood.  LOL 

hey you questioned people's fanhood first.

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Just now, Who is the Drizzle? said:

hey you questioned people's fanhood first.

Everybody here is a Tigers fan.  Stop being silly.  

It's kind of funny though seeing one of the most abrasive dudes at MTS hounding me for not being nice to people.    It's always that way.  Isn't it?

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3 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

Everybody here is a Tigers fan.  Stop being silly.  

It's kind of funny though seeing one of the most abrasive dudes at MTS hounding me for not being nice to people.    It's always that way.  Isn't it?

I hound people when they're dicks. I will fully admit that.

I was joking earlier but you took it seriously so I went with it.

But this is you in this thread:

Hey we got the #1 pick! Lee: actually, that sucks.

Hey, some team might foolishly take Znn! Lee: actually, that sucks.

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6 minutes ago, Who is the Drizzle? said:

I hound people when they're dicks. I will fully admit that.

I was joking earlier but you took it seriously so I went with it.

But this is you in this thread:

Hey we got the #1 pick! Lee: actually, that sucks.

Hey, some team might foolishly take Znn! Lee: actually, that sucks.

I didn't say either of those things.  It doesn't suck that they got the first pick.  Zimmermann being traded seems so unlikely and so non-impactful that it does suck either way.    I am sorry if I hurt your feelings though.

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Just now, tiger337 said:

I didn't say either of those things.  It doesn't suck that they got the first pick.  Zimmermann being traded seems so unlikely and so non-impactful that it does suck either way.    I am sorry if I hurt your feelings though.

half your posts in this thread are about how much it sucks when teams tank and fans suck that root for them to lose and blah blah blah.

and how terrible it'd be if we got rid of someone to save money because you don't care about money.

give me a break. you're being a wet blanket.

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Are the Tigers going to cut me a check when they save $10 million total(if they are lucky) over the next 3 years on the JZ trade?  If not, then who gives a ****? Why would any fan care? That extra money savings will have zero impact on the product on the field over the next three years.  Literally none.  All its going to do is keep a few extra million in the pocket of a billionaire.  Whoop de do.

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