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The Official 2017-2018 Detroit Tigers Off-season Thread

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4 hours ago, TigerNation said:

McCann is right around the league average in going to second base: https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/poptime

Pop time is overrated. McCann puts the ball where an out can be made with good probability. e.g. S Perez ranks higher in pop time and has a cannon, but his throws are too high  to make an out too often.

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17 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

Anibal Sanchez released.  

He was a good teammate. Who can forget him tossing the pumpkin seeds at Max during his interviews.

Those were the days.

 

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Arietta signing with Phillies.

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https://sports.yahoo.com/mlb-free-agency-attack-jake-arrieta-deal-shows-players-losing-141325261.html

 

I'm seeing more and more stories like this now and.... I don't know.  I don't see the problem.  Yes it sucks for those players who will miss out on the big paydays due to timing of birth.  Just like those guys in the 60s-80s missed out.  I'm not at all one of these "the players make too much" guys.  Let them make whatever the market supports.  Entertainers are going to be well paid in our society.  That's because you can get millions of people to fork over a little bit of their money to watch. 

If the system needs to be tweaked to adjust for compensation that prevents a team from signing a guy like that.... fine.  That's for the players to sort out.  The players are rich, they pay dues.  They hire a lot of lawyers and accountants that are supposed to know things like unintended consequences.  

The only reason I'd care is it it led to some prolonged labor stoppage.  I don't think it will.  I just simply can't get worked up over the plight of a group of players getting lost in the FA shuffle now that teams have realized it's not worth the big bucks for average players.  

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Oakland DFAd Labourt after signing Lucroy. Tigers could get him back for free.

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On 3/11/2018 at 7:26 AM, Gehringer_2 said:

Pop time is overrated. McCann puts the ball where an out can be made with good probability. e.g. S Perez ranks higher in pop time and has a cannon, but his throws are too high  to make an out too often.

Is it? Daren Willman said in an interview that pop time correlates highly with caught stealing rates.

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50 minutes ago, kdog said:

Oakland DFAd Labourt after signing Lucroy. Tigers could get him back for free.

but they would lose Bell or Hardy - cannot part with either of those winners.

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2 hours ago, Oblong said:

https://sports.yahoo.com/mlb-free-agency-attack-jake-arrieta-deal-shows-players-losing-141325261.html

 

I'm seeing more and more stories like this now and.... I don't know.  I don't see the problem.  Yes it sucks for those players who will miss out on the big paydays due to timing of birth.  Just like those guys in the 60s-80s missed out.  I'm not at all one of these "the players make too much" guys.  Let them make whatever the market supports.  Entertainers are going to be well paid in our society.  That's because you can get millions of people to fork over a little bit of their money to watch. 

If the system needs to be tweaked to adjust for compensation that prevents a team from signing a guy like that.... fine.  That's for the players to sort out.  The players are rich, they pay dues.  They hire a lot of lawyers and accountants that are supposed to know things like unintended consequences.  

The only reason I'd care is it it led to some prolonged labor stoppage.  I don't think it will.  I just simply can't get worked up over the plight of a group of players getting lost in the FA shuffle now that teams have realized it's not worth the big bucks for average players.  

I think the "let them make what the market supports" argument is a little complicated in a market that works as a government-protected monopoly consisting of a confederation of owners who have a vested interest in keeping salaries down as much as they can get away with. That's why collusion is such a clear and present danger to labor in the baseball market.

If baseball were a true free market—if there were other leagues in the world paying similar salaries that players could go to when they can't get the agreement they're looking for here—then an offseason as we've seen this winter wouldn't be nearly as much of a probability.  But despite that players could likely sign with leagues in Japan or South Korea or Taiwan, for example, none of these leagues are even close to being on the same level as Major League Baseball. So the freedom of markets is very limited in this case.

The percent of total revenue being paid to players has fallen from mid-fifties at one time to under 40 percent. Unlike the NFL and the NBA, the CBAs of which stipulate mandated targets for percent of revenue devoted to player salaries (something between 47 and 51 percent), baseball's CBA provides for nothing like that. So owners have an incentive to conspire to monopolize as high a percent of revenues to themselves as they can manage to get away with while simultaneously seeking to avoid drawing the scrutiny a collusion lawsuit would entail.

I'm not saying I believe there's collusion in Baseball, for certain. But I am saying that Baseball principals have an incentive to collude since the CBA is silent on revenue share. Football and Basketball principals precluded that incentive right in their contracts with their respective players unions.

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Neil Walker to Yankees.

This is NYY AAA team:

1-Austin

2-Wade

S-Torres/Estrada

3-Andujar

L-McKinney

C-Cave

R-Frazier

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20 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I think the "let them make what the market supports" argument is a little complicated in a market that works as a government-protected monopoly consisting of a confederation of owners who have a vested interest in keeping salaries down as much as they can get away with. That's why collusion is such a clear and present danger to labor in the baseball market.

If baseball were a true free market—if there were other leagues in the world paying similar salaries that players could go to when they can't get the agreement they're looking for here—then an offseason as we've seen this winter wouldn't be nearly as much of a probability.  But despite that players could likely sign with leagues in Japan or South Korea or Taiwan, for example, none of these leagues are even close to being on the same level as Major League Baseball. So the freedom of markets is very limited in this case.

The percent of total revenue being paid to players has fallen from mid-fifties at one time to under 40 percent. Unlike the NFL and the NBA, the CBAs of which stipulate mandated targets for percent of revenue devoted to player salaries (something between 47 and 51 percent), baseball's CBA provides for nothing like that. So owners have an incentive to conspire to monopolize as high a percent of revenues to themselves as they can manage to get away with while simultaneously seeking to avoid drawing the scrutiny a collusion lawsuit would entail.

I'm not saying I believe there's collusion in Baseball, for certain. But I am saying that Baseball principals have an incentive to collude since the CBA is silent on revenue share. Football and Basketball principals precluded that incentive right in their contracts with their respective players unions.

When I said "Let them make what the market supports" my point was I don't care if they all make $50 million a year.  I don't care what athletes make.  I know it has little or no relation to my cost of tickets and beer.  I wanted to express that I wasn't coming from that angle of "The players make too much money".

But I also don't see it as a travesty that a 32 year old free agent isn't getting the kind of offers that a guy in his position got 4 years ago.  What is collusion?  Is it collusion if 10 teams see what the Astros did and decide it's not worth it to spend $20 million on 3 players to get to 80 wins if that means they lose a pick in the draft and also draft lower?  I know I've bitched about this approach for the Tigers, as a season ticket holder, but I also can't argue against it.  I do want my team to be as competitive as possible on a personal level but in general I don't worry it as it affects the players.  To me this is inside baseball, pardon the pun, and something for the players union to sort out.  I am not sure it's news for us to care about.

 

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1 minute ago, Oblong said:

When I said "Let them make what the market supports" my point was I don't care if they all make $50 million a year.  I don't care what athletes make.  I know it has little or no relation to my cost of tickets and beer.  I wanted to express that I wasn't coming from that angle of "The players make too much money".

But I also don't see it as a travesty that a 32 year old free agent isn't getting the kind of offers that a guy in his position got 4 years ago.  What is collusion?  Is it collusion if 10 teams see what the Astros did and decide it's not worth it to spend $20 million on 3 players to get to 80 wins if that means they lose a pick in the draft and also draft lower?  I know I've bitched about this approach for the Tigers, as a season ticket holder, but I also can't argue against it.  I do want my team to be as competitive as possible on a personal level but in general I don't worry it as it affects the players.  To me this is inside baseball, pardon the pun, and something for the players union to sort out.  I am not sure it's news for us to care about.

 

I think I see what you mean. Personally speaking, if there's collusion among owners to keep salaries down, I would not like that. Not because I want players to make $50 million a year, necessarily, but because if the whiff of collusion is hanging in the air, that affects my enjoyment of the game, because there's always a chance of a labor stoppage. The NBA and NFL handled it the right way in their CBA. I think Baseball avoided anything like this because they still pine for the reserve clause. Those were the days, weren't they?

Collusion could happen without any paper trail. They do have owners' meetings after all, and there was one in December before this market took shape, so as long as there's no written communication to that effect, they could probably get away with it. I hope not. I hope you're right and everyone simply got smarter.

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I agree with you there... if there was collusion that would bother me for the reasons you state.  If it's the owners realizing on their own this is the best way for them individually to run their clubs... so be it.  If they 'got together'-that's a problem.  I don't want a work stoppage.

(Man, I feel like Trump.... what's collusion? There was no collusion... it's fake news)

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6 hours ago, kdog said:

Oakland DFAd Labourt after signing Lucroy. Tigers could get him back for free.

Dude is a hot potato.  Hope he has high self esteem.

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7 hours ago, RatkoVarda said:

Neil Walker to Yankees.

This is NYY AAA team:

1-Austin

2-Wade

S-Torres/Estrada

3-Andujar

L-McKinney

C-Cave

R-Frazier

Yankees only guarantee $5 million to Neil Walker. They got a lot better this offseason and barely touched their farm season. They're paying a pretty penny for Giancarlo in dollars, but they look really tough and if they need to upgrade their rotation at the deadline, they very easily have the pieces to get anyone available.  

The way this offseason has gone, we’re lucky we got anything for Kinsler and his 11 million dollars, especially considering he was only willing to go to Anaheim. I criticized AA for going after Fiers/Martin so soon but props to him for getting a couple of halfway decent prospects for Ian.

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if there were collusion, a team like the phillies wouldnt pay $25 million per year for a declining jake arrieta.

for years we all complained and mocked the owners for making stupid deals for free agent players past their prime.  now that the owners have hired smart people to run their organizations, some people are saying the players are getting screwed (no one here).

what screws the players is the system that is in place that holds their salaries down to a minimum for 3 years and then holds them down below market for the next 3.  that's the system they need to change.

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2 hours ago, Buddha said:

what screws the players is the system that is in place that holds their salaries down to a minimum for 3 years and then holds them down below market for the next 3.  that's the system they need to change.

Agreed, but they're going to have to strike to get there.  Is Tony Clark the right guy to lead a strike like that?  I'm not sure but I don't think so, he doesn't seem to show much emotion so I'm not really sure that he cares enough.  I'm not certain but I think that he might be too religious, him and Damion Easley.  I think that Tony Clark needs to be more demonstratively passionate and stop racking up the empty RBI's when the games have already been decided.

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8 minutes ago, Charles Liston said:

Agreed, but they're going to have to strike to get there.  Is Tony Clark the right guy to lead a strike like that?  I'm not sure but I don't think so, he doesn't seem to show much emotion so I'm not really sure that he cares enough.  I'm not certain but I think that he might be too religious, him and Damion Easley.  I think that Tony Clark needs to be more demonstratively passionate and stop racking up the empty RBI's when the games have already been decided.

I don't think they could do an amount of striking to change that. Every sport has some sort of rookie cap/wage scale and it lasts more than a year. 

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9 hours ago, Buddha said:

if there were collusion, a team like the phillies wouldnt pay $25 million per year for a declining jake arrieta.

for years we all complained and mocked the owners for making stupid deals for free agent players past their prime.  now that the owners have hired smart people to run their organizations, some people are saying the players are getting screwed (no one here).

what screws the players is the system that is in place that holds their salaries down to a minimum for 3 years and then holds them down below market for the next 3.  that's the system they need to change.

I don't think there is collusion.  But the pendulum sure seems to have swung the other way pretty rapidly over this offseason.

The story just came out that Neil Walker received only one MLB offer (from the Yankees) and one minor league offer (from the Royals, nice try I guess).  I suppose it could be a one sided story and there may have been other offers that didn't fit his desires (I seem to recall he was looking for 4 years, but cannot recall the cash).

With the way this offseason has panned out, and with the way drunk sailor Mike tossed offers around, can you imagine how things might have been had he still been around this offseason?

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On another topic, the Tigers have announced new extended netting.

https://www.wxyz.com/sports/detroit-tigers-extend-safety-netting-at-comerica-park-into-outfield

The nets are 30 feet high and go all the way down the left field line almost to the foul pole, and down the right field line about 2/3 the way to the foul pole.

Here's a visual on how far it's going to extend (red dashed line).

tigerseat.thumb.jpg.04a9aba12a759b7b52416f219c475a4b.jpg

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28 minutes ago, chasfh said:

On another topic, the Tigers have announced new extended netting.

https://www.wxyz.com/sports/detroit-tigers-extend-safety-netting-at-comerica-park-into-outfield

The nets are 30 feet high and go all the way down the left field line almost to the foul pole, and down the right field line about 2/3 the way to the foul pole.

Here's a visual on how far it's going to extend (red dashed line).

tigerseat.thumb.jpg.04a9aba12a759b7b52416f219c475a4b.jpg

As a pure baseball fan, I hate this.  But, with the many people who attend games for just the social environment and don't really pay attention to the actual game going on, it's probably a good thing.  

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19 minutes ago, roarintiger1 said:

As a pure baseball fan, I hate this.  But, with the many people who attend games for just the social environment and don't really pay attention to the actual game going on, it's probably a good thing.  

I wonder how the people in the front rows of section 140 or section 116 are going to like trying to see what's happening at the plate through an angled net.

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2 hours ago, chasfh said:

On another topic, the Tigers have announced new extended netting.

https://www.wxyz.com/sports/detroit-tigers-extend-safety-netting-at-comerica-park-into-outfield

The nets are 30 feet high and go all the way down the left field line almost to the foul pole, and down the right field line about 2/3 the way to the foul pole.

Here's a visual on how far it's going to extend (red dashed line).

tigerseat.thumb.jpg.04a9aba12a759b7b52416f219c475a4b.jpg

Why do they hate the people in section 113?

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3 hours ago, chasfh said:

On another topic, the Tigers have announced new extended netting.

https://www.wxyz.com/sports/detroit-tigers-extend-safety-netting-at-comerica-park-into-outfield

The nets are 30 feet high and go all the way down the left field line almost to the foul pole, and down the right field line about 2/3 the way to the foul pole.

Here's a visual on how far it's going to extend (red dashed line).

tigerseat.thumb.jpg.04a9aba12a759b7b52416f219c475a4b.jpg

Wow, that's quite a distance.  I wasn't expecting that.  It seems like netting about to the corner bases or maybe the infield cut would be sufficient, but I guess I don't know that for sure.

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