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The 2017 Post-Mortem

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2 hours ago, Sydney_Fife said:

Trade Kinsler. Let Sanchez and V Mart go. Find some bargain free agents to fill spots. They are probably in the 60-70 win range next season.

why trade Kinsler?  very reasonable contract and isn't blocking anyone.  let him reestablish his trade value, at least, and move him next season.

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3 minutes ago, Tenacious D said:

why trade Kinsler?  very reasonable contract and isn't blocking anyone.  let him reestablish his trade value, at least, and move him next season.

I think the assumption is that they can get a decent return to trade him this offseason. If they can’t find a deal for Iglesias, then he would be blocking machado, who is a player that needs to play every day for the 2018 tigers. 

There is also the danger that he doesn’t reestablish his value next year. 

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18 minutes ago, Tenacious D said:

why trade Kinsler?  very reasonable contract and isn't blocking anyone.  let him reestablish his trade value, at least, and move him next season.

They don't need to be paying a 35 year old veteran 11-12 million dollars to play on a tanking team.

He's best served elsewhere next season, and hopefully we can get a decent prospect in addition to shedding the salary

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41 minutes ago, Tenacious D said:

why trade Kinsler?  very reasonable contract and isn't blocking anyone.  let him reestablish his trade value, at least, and move him next season.

I don't think his value has dropped that much. I don't think he was valued as highly as his 2016 numbers would say, nor as lowly as his 2017 numbers.

It's gone down for sure, but I don't think you'll gain much trade-wise by hanging on to him until July. If someone makes a fair offer, and Ian is willing to go, they should take it.

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28 minutes ago, Sydney_Fife said:

They don't need to be paying a 35 year old veteran 11-12 million dollars to play on a tanking team.

He's best served elsewhere next season, and hopefully we can get a decent prospect in addition to shedding the salary

Kinsler has been a good citizen and productive player for Detroit, and Avila should reward him by sending him to a competitive team.  The good part, of course, is that Avila gets to see what he has at second base minus Kinsler--who isn't in future plans.

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I would keep Iglesias because we don't have another SS if Machado plays second. 

They could flip Iglesias to a contender at the deadline next year and fetch a decent prospect.

I just don't get how anyone can say they shouldn't bring back Presley. The guy was very solid for us and we are desperate for cheap decent guys for this rebuild 

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26 minutes ago, Who is the Drizzle? said:

I don't think his value has dropped that much. I don't think he was valued as highly as his 2016 numbers would say, nor as lowly as his 2017 numbers.

It's gone down for sure, but I don't think you'll gain much trade-wise by hanging on to him until July. If someone makes a fair offer, and Ian is willing to go, they should take it.

Agree. We'll get something interesting for him, but probably not exciting. He finished well enough, so there should be a market. Heyman had a piece recently where he speculated that the Angels claimed him at waiver deadline and will be interested in the offseason. And he listed teams like Brewers, Rays as possibilities too. I think there will be more of a market/return for him than Iglesias, and see Ian as most likely to be dealt this offseason.

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2 minutes ago, Sydney_Fife said:

I would keep Iglesias because we don't have another SS if Machado plays second. 

They could flip Iglesias to a contender at the deadline next year and fetch a decent prospect.

I just don't get how anyone can say they shouldn't bring back Presley. The guy was very solid for us and we are desperate for cheap decent guys for this rebuild 

The reasons would be that he is 32 years old with no prior history of success.  It doesn't hurt to bring him back, but I wouldn't expect anything from him or guarantee him a spot on the 25-man roster.  .  

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Henning today is again banging the drum that Iglesias would be non tendered this offseason if they aren’t able to trade him first. 

I get where he is coming from, but I still don’t know. Even if they tendered him a contract, they could still cut him in the spring if they can’t trade him, and they would get back a lot of the salary owed to him, because arb contracts are not guaranteed. 

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2 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

The reasons would be that he is 32 years old with no prior history of success.  It doesn't hurt to bring him back, but I wouldn't expect anything from him or guarantee him a spot on the 25-man roster.  .  

He's arbitration eligible, but he should still be back. It's not going to be that much more than the minimum still, I don't think.

BABIP is going to drop, but they probably need at least 1 guy like him, so it might as well be him.

Mahtook, Nick, Presley, Gerber, Jones is an acceptable OF to go to ST with for a bad team. Throw in another minor league FA/waiver claim/rule 5 pick to go with that.

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I don't think it makes sense to non-tender an elite defensive shortstop.  He is a bad hitter, but a .675 career OPS is passable as long as he remains this good defensively.   I don't think they are that desperate to save money.  

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4 minutes ago, Shelton said:

Henning today is again banging the drum that Iglesias would be non tendered this offseason if they aren’t able to trade him first. 

I get where he is coming from, but I still don’t know. Even if they tendered him a contract, they could still cut him in the spring if they can’t trade him, and they would get back a lot of the salary owed to him, because arb contracts are not guaranteed. 

Shocking that Henning's found an angle where the decision is not >90% and he takes the contrarian position.

I guess the argument is he doesn't have much of a trade market and they could save $5M and the extra games lost won't matter. I don't think it'd be a good PR move tho. They haven't straight dumped a non-terrible contract yet. Maybin the closest.

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2 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

I don't think it makes sense to non-tender an elite defensive shortstop.  He is a bad hitter, but a .675 career OPS is passable as long as he remains this good defensively.   I don't think they are that desperate to save money.  

Yeah, if they want to save a bit of coin, it makes more sense to non-tender Romine.

If they non-tender Iggy, trade Ian, that just leaves Machado, at which point you probably need to pay Romine his $1.75M or whatever. Just pay Iggy his $5/$6M in that case and view the Romine savings as a discount.

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3 hours ago, pyrotigers said:

I'm really confused as to why Miguel Cabrera played basically the entire season while

1. The team sucked

2. He sucked

3. He had herniated discs in his back (and if they really only found out he had herniated discs in his back after months of back problems...)

Other than that, what is there to say. Team sucks, all the fun players are gone, going to suck next year, at least we have Candelario.

Lynn Henning addressed this... http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/mlb/tigers/2017/09/26/tigers-offseason-program-improve-miguel-cabreras-back/106014896/

 

“We’ve asked him, on numerous occasions, to do more diagnostics,” said Al Avila, the Tigers’ general manager, responding to questions about why it took so long for the discs to be revealed. “He has turned down those overtures. You can’t make a player do something he doesn’t want to do.”

The disk herniations were discovered when Cabrera agreed last week to an early MRI as part of the annual “exit physical” when players’ conditions are evaluated ahead of offseason conditioning and rehab programs. Players also are given a complete physical when they report for spring camp, or if they are injured or disabled during the season.

 

But they have the right to decline MRIs or more comprehensive in-season exams, just as they have a right to tell superiors they’re able to play and prefer to play, which has been Cabrera’s steady insistence in 2017.

“If you do MRIs on people of his age group, 40 percent will have bulging disks with no back pain,” said Kevin Rand, the Tigers’ director of medical services and head athletic trainer, who said Cabrera’s spring physical indicated nothing alarming.

“Obviously, during the season he was having issues with his lower back and hip. But he wanted to wait until the end of the season was over to do something more thorough. We took the opportunity (last week) to say, let’s just do them now.”

Rand was adamant that Cabrera’s situation is not career-threatening. He said there was no sense from the Tigers medical team, which includes orthopedic surgeon Stephen Lemos, that Cabrera will require surgery.

“Do I think he’ll recover?” Rand asked. “Absolutely. If we put him on a good program this winter, you’ll see Miguel back to who he was.”

The Tigers have a broad medical team monitoring players and their health: Rand, as well as two assistant medical trainers; a fulltime physical therapist; and a three-person orthopedic team, with either of three doctors – Lemos, Michael Freehill, and Kyle Anderson – on hand for each home game.

“This has not been misdiagnosed,” said Avila, explaining that extensive medical oversight is routine on a big-league level. “They (the public) don’t always understand how it goes on a day-to-day basis.

“But we have our medical staff in there every day, every game. A player comes in and says: I can play. Often, he’ll get a treatment. That’s what trainers are there for: To enable them to perform if they can.”

Avila agreed with Rand that the diagnosis of a herniated disc perhaps sounded worse than medical reality.

“It doesn’t mean you can’t play,” Avila said. “There are a lot of different levels there. It’s not like he blew it out.

“People have played with herniated disks in all sports for years. And they’ve taken treatment for it through the years. Omar Infante (former Tigers second baseman) played with back issues like that his whole career.”

Rand said a player’s view ultimately matters most.

“The fact of the matter is,” he said, “if a player tells you he’s OK and can play, you’re going to listen to him.”

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How AA handles Kinsler and Iglesias will be telling. If he just dumps Kinsler or releases Iglesias, that means that Ilitch has given the order to save $ regardless of the return. I hope that both are traded with a significant amount of $ picked up to maximize the talent coming back. We'll see

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4 hours ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Probably because he was unfathomably bad against RHP in the first half of the season, and his second half brought him up to merely terrible levels against RHP.

In any event, McCann sucks, which was my point in posting his line because I irrationally hate him and am sick, in general, of hearing about him like he is an actual piece to build around.

He's better than Gerald Laird at least.

.732 OPS post AS-break vs. RHP. Only .830 vs LHP.

Not a player to build around tho for sure. At worst, you hope he gets hot for half a season and trade him.

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1 hour ago, tiger337 said:

The reasons would be that he is 32 years old with no prior history of success.  It doesn't hurt to bring him back, but I wouldn't expect anything from him or guarantee him a spot on the 25-man roster.  .  

I understand he is what he is, but he did a fine job this season. He has 2 years of arbitration left so he will be cheap. We need warm bodies for this rebuild and he seems to fit the bill perfectly.

I agree he shouldn't be given a starting role but he definitely deserves a roster spot after this season.

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37 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said:

How AA handles Kinsler and Iglesias will be telling. If he just dumps Kinsler or releases Iglesias, that means that Ilitch has given the order to save $ regardless of the return. I hope that both are traded with a significant amount of $ picked up to maximize the talent coming back. We'll see

this.  no indications have been made that we're trying to lower payroll significantly (beyond what has already happened).

I really doubt the trade market for Kinsler, coming off of a .236 BA, will be robust.  We don't need any more Grayson Long's in the organization.  If you can't get a player better than a Jacoby Jones, hold on to him until the deadline when teams are motivated to trade.  You're rolling the dice that he'll bounceback, but I doubt he's worse than he was this year.  If you feel like you need to trade a middle infielder to make room for Machado, then trade his twin.  On a losing team with a bunch of young players, who would you rather have helping to lead?  Kinsler or Iglesias?

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3 minutes ago, Tenacious D said:

this.  no indications have been made that we're trying to lower payroll significantly (beyond what has already happened).

I really doubt the trade market for Kinsler, coming off of a .236 BA, will be robust.  We don't need any more Grayson Long's in the organization.  If you can't get a player better than a Jacoby Jones, hold on to him until the deadline when teams are motivated to trade.  You're rolling the dice that he'll bounceback, but I doubt he's worse than he was this year.  If you feel like you need to trade a middle infielder to make room for Machado, then trade his twin.  On a losing team with a bunch of young players, who would you rather have helping to lead?  Kinsler or Iglesias?

How many young players are we actually going to have the first half of 2018?

Candelario, Jacoby, Jimenez, ???

I guess it depends on how you count Machado, Boyd, Norris, Fulmer.

But I don't think veteran mentorship is a huge issue right now. That'll be more of a 2019 thing with Gerber, Burrows, Lugo, etc.

And you can always get an Omar Infante type if you think it is an issue.

I'd trade both Ian and Iggy if the offers are right and sign a cheap vet.

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10 minutes ago, Tenacious D said:

On a losing team with a bunch of young players, who would you rather have helping to lead?  Kinsler or Iglesias?

I honestly don't know.  I could see Kinsler mailing it in if he asked to be moved and isn't accommodated.

I also don't know as that Iglesias would be a poor leader if that were the role he were asked to take.

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Iglesias was claimed on waivers in August and the Tigers pulled him back. If they were so desperate to save pennies, they could have let him go then. I'm sure they could have at least extracted a highly volatile A-ball arm and claimed victory, rather than non-tender him. 

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2 minutes ago, irvink said:

Iglesias was claimed on waivers in August and the Tigers pulled him back. If they were so desperate to save pennies, they could have let him go then. I'm sure they could have at least extracted a highly volatile A-ball arm and claimed victory, rather than non-tender him. 

Keeping despite being claimed could have simply been that they wanted a chance to try trading him this November. It’s possible that whoever claimed him was not willing to even give up a volatile A ball arm.

the fact that henning keeps harping on the non tender as a likelihood leads me to believe that he knows a little something about the org’s thinking. 

The Fulmer thing he keeps bringing up seems more like wishful thinking from a guy who gets wood from the idea of adding blue chip prospects. 

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16 minutes ago, Tenacious D said:

this.  no indications have been made that we're trying to lower payroll significantly (beyond what has already happened).

I really doubt the trade market for Kinsler, coming off of a .236 BA, will be robust.  We don't need any more Grayson Long's in the organization.  If you can't get a player better than a Jacoby Jones, hold on to him until the deadline when teams are motivated to trade.  You're rolling the dice that he'll bounceback, but I doubt he's worse than he was this year.  If you feel like you need to trade a middle infielder to make room for Machado, then trade his twin.  On a losing team with a bunch of young players, who would you rather have helping to lead?  Kinsler or Iglesias?

Kinsler was 9th in HR for 2B with 22 this year.  Cano and a few other guys had 23, Altuve had 24.

He was also 10th in SB for 2B with 14, while playing an above-average 2B defensively.

While it is true the Tigers would not get a haul in return for Kinsler, it seems conceivable they could get a decent A or AA prospect for him.

I have no idea what the market is for Iglesias.

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