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Michigan State vs #7 Michigan - 10/7/17

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Just now, sabretooth said:

 

I thought we were allowed to express our opinions on the message board, officer.

ah, the famous defense from someone that knows they have a poor opinion.

but honestly, you're right. you're venting, i'm venting. for me it all comes down to the qb over any abstract things like 'he didn't get his team ready' or 'dantonion owns him.' sure the oline/rb/wr could be better but we knew that coming in.

probably time for me to take a break. i feel like i'm getting more irritation than insight from reading this board in general nowadays. my fault. it is what it is.

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Looking at schedules after Stan's post....I see 4 pretty certain wins for UM - IU, RU, MN, MD - the question is how they do in these 3 - @PSU, @WI and vs tOSU.   So probably 9-3, maybe 10-2 and unlikely 11-1.

MSU should win 4 more - @MN, vs IU, vs MD, @ RU - but a brutal 3 game stretch could all be losses....@ NW, vs PSU, @ tOSU.  Given the chance to blow the game at MN, I'll say 8-4 is most likely for the Spartans.   Based on last year any Spartan fan would have happily taken 8-4 with a win at Michigan included.

My only opinion for Harbaugh  is that he should follow the lead of Houston and bench O'Korn.  Play one of the kids he recruited, there can't be that much of a downside and the obvious upside is preparing for next season.

 

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I'd say the odds are that MSU will end up 9-3 this year and U of M will end up 8-4. It could change, but given the schedules, that looks most likely. Michigan has to play spoiler to a couple teams seasons now and see if they can get at least one win against either Penn State, Wisconsin or OSU.

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7 hours ago, Who is the Drizzle? said:

ah, the famous defense from someone that knows they have a poor opinion.

but honestly, you're right. you're venting, i'm venting. for me it all comes down to the qb over any abstract things like 'he didn't get his team ready' or 'dantonion owns him.' sure the oline/rb/wr could be better but we knew that coming in.

probably time for me to take a break. i feel like i'm getting more irritation than insight from reading this board in general nowadays. my fault. it is what it is.

My opinion boils down to this:

- Michigan's a better team

- Harbaugh's a better coach

- Michigan was at home

- I don't think Speight is so much better than O'Korn to cancel out the above

- the offense has been getting disrupted by blitz packages all year and they don't seem to use their TEs enough to beat those packages 

- bottom line: they shouldn't have lost to MSU 

The B.S. part of your post is where you say I am trying to hold Harbaugh accountable.  I think Harbaugh is a top notch head coach; I am very happy to have him here and I don't want him to fail, but there's absolutely nothing that we as fans can do about any of it; I am not trying to hold anybody accountable because that's impossible.

You don't agree with my opinion, I get it, but saying that the better team shouldn't have lost and their game plan has been deficient all year is hardly out of left field.

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I'm a diehard Michigan State fan, but man Michigan's defense is legit.

Dantonio is a great coach. Last season was a disaster, but they've bounced back this year so far. Very impressed by their defense after an absolute trainwreck last year.

I'm shocked by Harbaugh's offense in year 3. Downright pathetic for most of the season.

That's the QB play in year 3? Speight was bad, O'Korn is bad, where are the freshman? Might as well see what one of them has.

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Just had this come across another message board....I assume the "young and inexperienced" thing that Stan referred to in this thread must be making the rounds:

Quote

Listed starters only.
MSU:
Seniors (3)- Allen (C), Frey (OLB), Holmes (RB)
Juniors (6)- Davis (WR),  Sokol (TE), Alexander (DE), Dowell (OLB), Morrisey (S), Willis (S)
Sophomores (10) - Chewins (LT), Higby (LG), Stewart (WR), Jackson (WR), Lewerke (QB), Willikes (DE), Panasiuk (DT), Williams (DT), Bachie (MLB), Butler (CB)
Freshmen (3)- Campbell (RT), Scott (CB), Jarvis (RG)

U-M:
Seniors (8)- Cole (LT), Kugler (C), O'Korn (QB), Hill (FB), Hurst (DT), Winovich (DE), Furbush (LB), McCray (LB)
Juniors (4)- Ulizio (RT), Higedon (RB), Perry (WR), Kinnel (FS)
Sophomores (10)- Crawford (WR), Bredeson (LG), Onwenu (RG), McKeon (TE), Gary (DE), Bush (LB), Hudson (LB), Hill (CB), Metellus (S), Long (CB)
Freshmen- None listed as starters.

So, in summary, we graduate five fewer seniors, we start 2 more Juniors, our Sophomore starters are identical in number, and we start 3 freshmen to their zero. They may be a young team but we're notably younger.

 

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I’m not sure what the context is for the “young and inexperienced argument.” 

Both teams looked bad on Saturday. But at least MSU was able to put the ball in the end zone when it got down there and was able to hold on to the ball. They deserved to win that game. 

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On 10/9/2017 at 2:28 AM, Scottwood said:

I'd say the odds are that MSU will end up 9-3 this year and U of M will end up 8-4. It could change, but given the schedules, that looks most likely. Michigan has to play spoiler to a couple teams seasons now and see if they can get at least one win against either Penn State, Wisconsin or OSU.

Michigan loses in a fluke monsoon game where they have five TO, and all of a sudden they fall from #7 to a four-loss team?  You can take the lowest common denominator here if you want (and you have), but there is zero reason to think that we'll see a performance like this again this year out of Michigan.  To turn the ball over five times and give up just 14 points is quite a feat.

If Harbaugh makes the necessary adjustments over he next few weeks it is quite possible Michigan goes 10-2.

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I have them as a 4 loss team now.

But I was already predicting losses against PSU, Wisconsin, and OSU.  So 4 losses makes sense.

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8 minutes ago, Deleterious said:

I have them as a 4 loss team now.

But I was already predicting losses against PSU, Wisconsin, and OSU.  So 4 losses makes sense.

Crazytalk.  Wisconsin hasn't played anybody, and PSU only put up 21 on Iowa.  Michigan wins one of those games, minimum.

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50 minutes ago, mickeyb105 said:

Michigan loses in a fluke monsoon game where they have five TO, and all of a sudden they fall from #7 to a four-loss team?  You can take the lowest common denominator here if you want (and you have), but there is zero reason to think that we'll see a performance like this again this year out of Michigan.  To turn the ball over five times and give up just 14 points is quite a feat.

If Harbaugh makes the necessary adjustments over he next few weeks it is quite possible Michigan goes 10-2.

Why sell them short? They could go 11-1 and win the big ten championship game and then win the playoff. 

The game was not that big of a fluke. Michigan showed little ability against a mediocre at best defense. Forget the turnovers.  They still had to punt 7 times in that game. And while the defense is definitely very good, MSU had little reason to open things up given that they had the lead and Michigan couldn’t sustain any drives. 

This is very bad offense. Years of recruiting failures on the offensive line and losing newsome has killed them. The lack of outside receivers is not helping matters. 

I think we saw very clearly why speight was ahead of OKorn and remained ahead of him even after he struggled in the first few games. 

At the moment, it makes sense to stick with OKorn and see if he can get his head on straight and whether the coaches can come up with a plan to get the offense to work within the abilities of the line and the quarterback and the receivers. Maybe they can figure something out. 

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If Dantonio can get more out of an OL and a team in general that's supposed to have less talent than UM, there's no reason for Harbaugh not to have a serviceable OL at a minimum.

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2 minutes ago, Shelton said:

 

The game was not that big of a fluke. Michigan showed little ability against a mediocre at best defense. Forget the turnovers.  They still had to punt 7 times in that game. And while the defense is definitely very good, MSU had little reason to open things up given that they had the lead and Michigan couldn’t sustain any drives. 

 

When you turn the ball over five times it is hard to beat anyone.  Field position football is a big part of Harbaugh's strategy with a great defense, so punting seven times is less--much less--of a big deal than the turnovers.

If you think MSU's offense is capable of beating Michigan's defense, in a position where they open things up, then we have very different opinions on both the strength of the Spartan offense and the strength of the Michigan defense.

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2 minutes ago, mickeyb105 said:

If you think MSU's offense is capable of beating Michigan's defense, in a position where they open things up, then we have very different opinions on both the strength of the Spartan offense and the strength of the Michigan defense.

Strangely in the 1st half when the weather was not a factor they did just that.

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4 minutes ago, Euphdude said:

If Dantonio can get more out of an OL and a team in general that's supposed to have less talent than UM, there's no reason for Harbaugh not to have a serviceable OL at a minimum.

It isn't like MSU was killing it with 158 yards rushing on 4 YPC.  Take away each team's longest run and the stats are all but identical.  That 50-yard run by London goosed MSU's YPC by over a yard.

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Just now, LooseGoose said:

Strangely in the 1st half when the weather was not a factor they did just that.

One fumble put MSU at the Michigan 44, the other was a gift on a first-down pass to the MSU 35.  MSU's 83-yard drive, on the strength of a 50-yard run, was the only real burst of offense they had.  

Hats off to MSU for the win, and for not turning the ball over even when they tried to, but pretending MSU dominated with their 13 first downs to Michigan's 17 is fantasy.

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32 minutes ago, mickeyb105 said:

When you turn the ball over five times it is hard to beat anyone.  Field position football is a big part of Harbaugh's strategy with a great defense, so punting seven times is less--much less--of a big deal than the turnovers.

If you think MSU's offense is capable of beating Michigan's defense, in a position where they open things up, then we have very different opinions on both the strength of the Spartan offense and the strength of the Michigan defense.

Of course the turnovers were a big deal. But you also can’t just ignore them. OKorn has a tendency to force things. But they also had plenty of opportunities to score points and they ended up with only two scoring drives and seven punts on drives that didn’t end in turnovers. 

I am not saying that the MSU offense would have scored easily by running a more agressive offense. But they didn’t try to do too much because they didn’t have to, and that makes things a lot easier on a defense when you can commit to stopping an offense that is in conservative clock killing mode, especially given the playing conditions. 

It isn’t as easy as saying that without some of the turnovers Michigan surely takes care of business. They did little to show that they could move the ball when they weren’t turning it over. 

The offense sucks. 

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44 minutes ago, mickeyb105 said:

One fumble put MSU at the Michigan 44, the other was a gift on a first-down pass to the MSU 35.  MSU's 83-yard drive, on the strength of a 50-yard run, was the only real burst of offense they had.  

Hats off to MSU for the win, and for not turning the ball over even when they tried to, but pretending MSU dominated with their 13 first downs to Michigan's 17 is fantasy.

No one is pretending MSU dominated.  The UM offense didn't do much in the good weather after the opening drive.  Just holding them to a FG then seemed like a big victory.

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On 10/9/2017 at 7:25 AM, sabretooth said:

My opinion boils down to this:

- Michigan's a better team

- Harbaugh's a better coach

- Michigan was at home

- I don't think Speight is so much better than O'Korn to cancel out the above

- the offense has been getting disrupted by blitz packages all year and they don't seem to use their TEs enough to beat those packages 

- bottom line: they shouldn't have lost to MSU 

The B.S. part of your post is where you say I am trying to hold Harbaugh accountable.  I think Harbaugh is a top notch head coach; I am very happy to have him here and I don't want him to fail, but there's absolutely nothing that we as fans can do about any of it; I am not trying to hold anybody accountable because that's impossible.

You don't agree with my opinion, I get it, but saying that the better team shouldn't have lost and their game plan has been deficient all year is hardly out of left field.

when you say there's no excuse that's a trigger for me. there's always reasons. saying the gameplan is poor is just a cop out. what about it is poor? why might it be poor? let me get into that--

there's 4 obvious answers as to why the called plays did not work--a young OL that doesn't have great talent, backup QB with no arm (and a RS-Jr that lost accuracy when he was healthy), no (deep) threats on the outside, and a downgrade in coaches from fisch to pep.

maybe to you those are excuses, which are not allowed, but to me they're reasons. and once you have reasons things are not going well, you can start to come up with solutions, or know where you're ******: can't do much but wait/keep coaching on the Oline. At WR you just have to wait until next year, or hope DPJ takes a quick step up. At QB, I'd like to see Peters get some reps going forward. And I wouldn't mind see a change in offensive staff in the off-season--Drevno hasn't gotten much done, and Pep/Frey haven't seemed to help much so far.

if you want to look backwards and ask why we are in this situation now, the OT recruiting has been poor, JH did not get a QB his first partial recruiting class and Hoke left only Speight at QB, our most talented WRs are still young, and our offensive coaches seem to be struggling this season.

The criticism of game-calling is tougher because I don't think you or I can come up with meaningful suggestions. I will venture out a guess that O'Korn is not great on the deep ball and that's taking a way a staple of the offense (that in this case was also the weakness of the MSU defense). I think if Speight is in the game you see at least 2 play action bombs, something that if it clicked would have opened up the running game and probably the intermediate passing game as well.

At any rate, it's one freaking game. And even if the season turns into 8-4 or worse, that's no reason to freak out either, not right when 2 hand-picked QB recruits battling next year. that'll make up for an OLine that might not be elite, especially if DPJ or Black approach their hype. And once you have a base to work with that actually worries opponents, you can get more creative with your play calling.

Not that you're freaking out, but to say there's no excuse is a bit removed from the actual situation.

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1 hour ago, Euphdude said:

If Dantonio can get more out of an OL and a team in general that's supposed to have less talent than UM, there's no reason for Harbaugh not to have a serviceable OL at a minimum.

OLineman take a while to develop, generally speaking. But I agree this has been the most disappointing aspect of JH at UM so far. Especially at tackle. Ruiz/Brederson/Onwenu should be a really good inside core next year, and I think they have a few guys that should provide depth there as well.

But tackle concerns me. You are pretty much hoping that Newsome returns healthy without having lost a step physically, AND that a RS-freshman is ready or that Ulizio or JBB are somehow a lot better than they look. They have a couple OT recruits but I don't think they're the types that can even dream about starting as a true frosh.

They could move Brederson outside again I suppose. Doesn't seem like his best position, but they might need to.

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18 minutes ago, Who is the Drizzle? said:

when you say there's no excuse that's a trigger for me. there's always reasons. saying the gameplan is poor is just a cop out. what about it is poor? why might it be poor? let me get into that--

there's 4 obvious answers as to why the called plays did not work--a young OL that doesn't have great talent, backup QB with no arm (and a RS-Jr that lost accuracy when he was healthy), no (deep) threats on the outside, and a downgrade in coaches from fisch to pep.

maybe to you those are excuses, which are not allowed, but to me they're reasons. and once you have reasons things are not going well, you can start to come up with solutions, or know where you're ******: can't do much but wait/keep coaching on the Oline. At WR you just have to wait until next year, or hope DPJ takes a quick step up. At QB, I'd like to see Peters get some reps going forward. And I wouldn't mind see a change in offensive staff in the off-season--Drevno hasn't gotten much done, and Pep/Frey haven't seemed to help much so far.

if you want to look backwards and ask why we are in this situation now, the OT recruiting has been poor, JH did not get a QB his first partial recruiting class and Hoke left only Speight at QB, our most talented WRs are still young, and our offensive coaches seem to be struggling this season.

The criticism of game-calling is tougher because I don't think you or I can come up with meaningful suggestions. I will venture out a guess that O'Korn is not great on the deep ball and that's taking a way a staple of the offense (that in this case was also the weakness of the MSU defense). I think if Speight is in the game you see at least 2 play action bombs, something that if it clicked would have opened up the running game and probably the intermediate passing game as well.

At any rate, it's one freaking game. And even if the season turns into 8-4 or worse, that's no reason to freak out either, not right when 2 hand-picked QB recruits battling next year. that'll make up for an OLine that might not be elite, especially if DPJ or Black approach their hype. And once you have a base to work with that actually worries opponents, you can get more creative with your play calling.

Not that you're freaking out, but to say there's no excuse is a bit removed from the actual situation.

All valid points in theory, except for one thing: you say that you were triggered by my insistence that there was NO EXCUSE.....but I never said that they had NO excuse. 

I was arguing Stanpapi's point that missing Speight and Black = loss to MSU.  I dont think that was a good enough excuse, and I will bet you that Harbaugh and his coaching staff would agree.  Their ability to win a home game against MSU should not hang on Speight.  Of it does, that indicates a failure on the leadership/coaching/game plan.

I have also not argued that they should have taken more shots downfield in this game.... I have argued since the Air Force game that the TEs have been underutilized in the short passing game.

 

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2 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

All valid points in theory, except for one thing: you say that you were triggered by my insistence that there was NO EXCUSE.....but I never said that they had NO excuse. 

I was arguing Stanpapi's point that missing Speight and Black = loss to MSU.  I dont think that was a good enough excuse, and I will bet you that Harbaugh and his coaching staff would agree.  Their ability to win a home game against MSU should not hang on Speight.  Of it does, that indicates a failure on the leadership/coaching/game plan.

I have also not argued that they should have taken more shots downfield in this game.... I have argued since the Air Force game that the TEs have been underutilized in the short passing game.

 

My new message board self is not going to get into nit-picky technicalities. I read your post how I read it. If I missed the ball by a mile, apologies.

Regarding your final point, I wasn't addressing you directly, I didn't remember you talking or not talking about tight ends. But I don't think the short passing game works when you have no deep threat. Too easy to take away while simultaneously taking away the run. Basically you just activate your safeties. That's just my opinion, I don't really want to get into it.

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3 minutes ago, Euphdude said:

Speight would not have made a difference against MSU.  He and O'Korn are equally "meh".

Speight has much better command of the offense and wouldn't have taken that many sacks. He's generally been more careful with the ball as well. I think they would have at least tried to hit something deep as well.

Maybe they're both meh, but Speight is a better fit for the offense, especially in this game.

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30 minutes ago, Who is the Drizzle? said:

there's 4 obvious answers as to why the called plays did not work--a young OL that doesn't have great talent,

Is a college OL starting 2 seniors, a junior and 2 sophomores really considered too young?

As noted above MSU was starting 1 senior, 2 Sophomores and 2 true freshmen.

 

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