Jump to content

THECATMAC

Ausmus has lost this team.......losing 17-7 today..

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Casimir said:

The bullpen components have largely been a treasure trove of trash over the years.  I mean, I know bullpens are volatile, but how many of the arms tried in the past several renditions of the Tiger bullpen have gone on to have success elsewhere?  Rodney and Benoit come to mind, but that's going back quite a ways and not a part of the Ausmus era.  

This is not to say that Ausmus hasn't made mistakes.  But I think its hard to out the bullpen's failings completely on his shoulders.

Bullpens are always a trove of warmed over junk.  There's some luck involved but even eith a good cheap closer last year and a decent setup acquisition in JWilson he still couldn't keep the pen out of the bottom tier.  Four years straight of failed bullpens with two different GMs is not my definition of bad luck.

And I'm not saying that the GM is not at fault too, but the manager and coaching staff have a significant impact on bullpen piece selection, reclamation projects, and also in game mgt.  But in game mgt is only one piece of the puzzle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

Bullpens are always a trove of warmed over junk.  There's some luck involved but even eith a good cheap closer last year and a decent setup acquisition in JWilson he still couldn't keep the pen out of the bottom tier.  Four years straight of failed bullpens with two different GMs is not my definition of bad luck.

And I'm not saying that the GM is not at fault too, but the manager and coaching staff have a significant impact on bullpen piece selection, reclamation projects, and also in game mgt.  But in game mgt is only one piece of the puzzle.

J. Wilson was not very good most of last year.  Who was the good cheap closer?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

Bullpens are always a trove of warmed over junk.  There's some luck involved but even eith a good cheap closer last year and a decent setup acquisition in JWilson he still couldn't keep the pen out of the bottom tier.  Four years straight of failed bullpens with two different GMs is not my definition of bad luck.

And I'm not saying that the GM is not at fault too, but the manager and coaching staff have a significant impact on bullpen piece selection, reclamation projects, and also in game mgt.  But in game mgt is only one piece of the puzzle.

But if the arms that they had employed were really any good and it was just bad misuse and/or not coaching them up enough, some other team surely would have scooped them up and polished them up into usable pieces.  Some of these arms, if they were any good, should have turned up and been salvaged somewhere, and it hasn't happened.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

18 minutes ago, Casimir said:

But if the arms that they had employed were really any good and it was just bad misuse and/or not coaching them up enough, some other team surely would have scooped them up and polished them up into usable pieces.  Some of these arms, if they were any good, should have turned up and been salvaged somewhere, and it hasn't happened.

Put aside the top two or maybe three arms in virtually any bullpen and the rest is iffy at best (or "warmed over junk"), not the level of talent that you would expect to succeed anywhere....but successful organizations, managers and pitching coaches figure out how to select/coach/develop/reclaim that junk and make it fit well enough into their scheme.  

DD, Leyland and Leyland's pitching coaches did it well enough over 8 years to build a decent bullpen most of the time and make the playoffs half of the time.  I'm not saying that DD and/or Leyland were great, or even above average....the stats support the notion that most of the time they were decent at it as a unit.  Ausmus has not figured out his part of it for even one of four years with two different GMs.  

In any case, your post seems to proceed from the assumption that ML Managers have absolutely no influence or control over any part of their roster, active or otherwise, and that the GM just phones up and says "this is your roster this year" or "we're adding this guy to your bullpen, good luck".  That may in fact be the way it works in some or even most teams, but based on the overall body of published material, I highly doubt that it works that way, at least not for the entire roster, on most successful/winning teams.

By all published accounts the management of at least part the bullpen roster in the DD/Leyland era was a collaborative effort between GM and Manager; this in my opinion feels like the right way to build/manage the  bullpen pieces, and is one of the reasons I prefer a good veteran coach for a win-now team; a good veteran coach should be able to help identify the kinds of pieces that he and his coaching staff need to have to fill out the bullpen (the bullpen needs and pieces naturally will change every year depending on many factors, including but not limited to who is the closer, setup man, how many innings do we expect the rotation to cover, what development projects do we think are ready to blossom inside the organization, health problems/recovery, etc. etc.).  

If Ausmus has had no influence or say over at least some of his bullpen pieces, that is in my opinion a cause for concern about the relationship between the FO and Manager.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, tiger337 said:

J. Wilson was not very good most of last year.  Who was the good cheap closer?  

KRod would not have been my pick for closer by a long shot.  But he did a good enough job to get us within a game or so of the playoffs.....it's of course a given that the kind of closer you or I would have preferred would likely have made the difference vs. getting KRod, but aside from the closer, there was ample opportunity to pick/develop/manager better pieces/outcomes down the line in the bullpen, and they failed in most of those places moreso than at closer in my opinion.

Justin Wilson was a pretty good pickup talent-wise for the bullpen....it's the FO and Manager's job to take pretty good pieces, develop/reclaim/put them where they can best function and to keep their inevitable incidental failures from hurting the team too much and/or snowballing into a major problem.  

A huge part of that is properly identifying/selecting/developing/coaching the rest of the bullpen pieces, which as I've said is still something that a consistently winning Manager must add significant value to in conjunction with the FO/GM.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the context of everything that I have written on this subject in this thread and elsewhere over the years.....

DD and Leyland were generally good enough in their knowledge/relationship/inputs and results in the area of the bullpen to make it work well enough for the team as a whole.  

Brad and DD and Brad and AA have failed every year at bullpens.  

There's no doubt in my mind that Brad's failed at his numerous bullpen-related functions to-date.

I'm not singling out in-game management of the bullpen for evaluation, as some seem to assume is the only thing that a Manager can significantly influence WRT to bullpens.

I'm also not saying that the Manager picks the bullpen or should pick the bullpen.  It seems like it worked well enough with DD/Leyland where the GM made the selections, but the Manager (and the Manager in turn with his coaching staff) provided significant input and influence.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

In the context of everything that I have written on this subject in this thread and elsewhere over the years.....

DD and Leyland were generally good enough in their knowledge/relationship/inputs and results in the area of the bullpen to make it work well enough for the team as a whole.  

Brad and DD and Brad and AA have failed every year at bullpens.  

There's no doubt in my mind that Brad's failed at his numerous bullpen-related functions to-date.

I'm not singling out in-game management of the bullpen for evaluation, as some seem to assume is the only thing that a Manager can significantly influence WRT to bullpens.

I'm also not saying that the Manager picks the bullpen or should pick the bullpen.  It seems like it worked well enough with DD/Leyland where the GM made the selections, but the Manager (and the Manager in turn with his coaching staff) provided significant input and influence.

You have many well thought posts on this subject and you made excellent points. Well done. Because I agree....😀

I would say Brad would be a fine manager, somewhere else. He just wasn't the right man for this job at this time. Either as a contender or as a leader, to rebuild.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, sabretooth said:

In any case, your post seems to proceed from the assumption that ML Managers have absolutely no influence or control over any part of their roster, active or otherwise, and that the GM just phones up and says "this is your roster this year" or "we're adding this guy to your bullpen, good luck".  That may in fact be the way it works in some or even most teams, but based on the overall body of published material, I highly doubt that it works that way, at least not for the entire roster, on most successful/winning teams.

By all published accounts the management of at least part the bullpen roster in the DD/Leyland era was a collaborative effort between GM and Manager; this in my opinion feels like the right way to build/manage the  bullpen pieces, and is one of the reasons I prefer a good veteran coach for a win-now team; a good veteran coach should be able to help identify the kinds of pieces that he and his coaching staff need to have to fill out the bullpen (the bullpen needs and pieces naturally will change every year depending on many factors, including but not limited to who is the closer, setup man, how many innings do we expect the rotation to cover, what development projects do we think are ready to blossom inside the organization, health problems/recovery, etc. etc.).  

If Ausmus has had no influence or say over at least some of his bullpen pieces, that is in my opinion a cause for concern about the relationship between the FO and Manager.

There has to be some collaborative effort between the manager and the general manager.  They have to be in tune with what kind of team they are going to employ and run.  I would think that the front office would take care of most of the burden of scouting and acquiring with some input from the coaching staff.  I would think that more of that burden shifts to the front office with a relatively new manager, especially in the first year or two.  But to what exact degree that input is, I honestly don't know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, roarintiger1 said:

Will anyone in Detroit miss him?

Not many.  Even if you don't think he is a bad manager, he is not memorable as a personality.  He's not like Anderson and Leyland where fans might miss their personalities even though they know they were done as managers.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

The soccer moms at home watching the game?

No kids over here, but the wife is definitely a fan. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think Ausmus is a bad manager; I think he's a pretty conventional manager at this point. I do think he was the wrong fit for the team he took over, though. I wanted McClendon at the time, but I was excited about the potential of Ausmus after he was hired. Obviously, he was a disappointment right out of the gate, but he's improved to the point of being average, imo.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×