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Casimir

09/04/2017 1:10pm Kansas City Royals @ Detroit Tigers

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9 hours ago, sabretooth said:

I'm sorry, is anybody ******* surprised at JD teeing off?  He's a world-class power hitter.

I'm not here to argue that it was a bad trade but he is a great hitter.

Another thing I don't like is that I think he is under appreciated as a player.  He is a tremendous power hitter,plenty good enough to compensate for his one dimensionality.  

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10 hours ago, SeattleMike said:

How lucky is Arizona. They filled a big hole and gave up virtually nothing. Martinez with 4 homers tonite and 18 since the trade. He has 34 HRs in around 3 months. 

Just bad timing I guess, if you believe the insiders. But it will be a while before I stop seething about this trade. To think that we traded Martinez and Upton and didn't get one top 100 or even top 200 prospect between the two of them is remarkable and maddening--regardeless of the circumstances. 

So your position is that we should have held on to both and gotten nothing at the end of the season?

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I think AA had to move him. But I agree that JD was undervalued by other teams, many of whom are surely kicking themselves right now for not beating ARZ's package.

JD is not a good outfielder but he is an elite power hitter and a very good hitter. He can lift a team for a good stretch. I think teams got overly focused on what he wasn't very good while ignoring what he was great at. 

I that most of the good teams did not have a glaring need for an OF bat, but I still think that at the price he was acquire for, almost any team could have benefited from his as an upgrade. 

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3 minutes ago, irvink said:

I think AA had to move him. But I agree that JD was undervalued by other teams, many of whom are surely kicking themselves right now for not beating ARZ's package.

JD is not a good outfielder but he is an elite power hitter and a very good hitter. He can lift a team for a good stretch. I think teams got overly focused on what he wasn't very good while ignoring what he was great at. 

I that most of the good teams did not have a glaring need for an OF bat, but I still think that at the price he was acquire for, almost any team could have benefited from his as an upgrade. 

Reminds me of the fister trade. After that was made, the consensus was that DD didn't get enough and should have just held fister. You had anonymous quotes from other execs saying they would have beat that. But DD gave everyone a chance to trade for fister, and no one else stepped up. If you are an opposing GM, you have only yourself to blame for not stepping up, especially when you know the tigers are going to making a trade. 

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1 hour ago, LooseGoose said:

So your position is that we should have held on to both and gotten nothing at the end of the season?

I think his position is he wishes the Tigers were not in a position where they had to make those trades.  Rebuilding teams tend to end up on the short end of deals more often than not.  

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15 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

I think his position is he wishes the Tigers were not in a position where they had to make those trades.  Rebuilding teams tend to end up on the short end of deals more often than not.  

All of us wish that, reality was that the team was going nowhere.

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It's hard to be too upset. It's been a pretty good run. People have been saying for years that the Tigers would get to this point. They were able to put it off for a while. 

I think Avila has done a good job pushing the reset button. We have a couple rough seasons ahead, but things will turn around again. 

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1 minute ago, LooseGoose said:

All of us wish that, reality was that the team was going nowhere.

Those are not mutually exclusive views though.  You can hate that they are in the position they are in and still realize the trades had to made.   I view them as a loser organization right now, but I also realize that the first step in getting back to being a winner was the front office understanding that they had to make a big change.  

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2 hours ago, LooseGoose said:

So your position is that we should have held on to both and gotten nothing at the end of the season?

No. I just can't believe the piddling return. Not even blaming Avila necessarily. Just incredibly bad luck and timing, which is the source of most of my annoyance. 

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11 hours ago, sabretooth said:

I'm sorry, is anybody ******* surprised at JD teeing off?  He's a world-class power hitter.

I'm not here to argue that it was a bad trade but he is a great hitter.

Who's surprised? Not me. It's just remarkable that a guy with his offensive skills was viewed so indifferently by most of the contenders. I get that sluggers are a dime a dozen currently. But Martinez is more than just steak, he's chateaubriand, and despite some defensive flaws he still would have added one or two wins to any contender.  Yet there was no interest. Funny thing is Arizona probably didn't even need him--but if the cost is so incredibly low and you have hole to fill why not pull the trigger. 

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I was thinking about the timing of these trades. A lot of people seem upset that we did not make these moves sooner. 

It was reported that AA was open for business last winter. JD, JV, Miggy, Upton, Kinsler... All could have been had.

Wilson was not mentioned, as far as I can remember, but I have little doubt that he and Avila fetched more in July than they would have in the offseason. 

At that point, it was generally assumed that Upton was a bad contract, and that he would opt in, and no one was interested. So don't see how he would have done better in the offseason, unless he was willing to eat a lot of money.

JV was coming off a Cy Young caliber season, but teams remained wary of the contract. As far as I can recall, we did not hear one credible JV rumor, so tough to believe AA could have done much better.

The only offer we seemed to have for Kinsler was Jose DeLeon from the Dodgers. That's who the Rays got for Forsythe. It might be too early to call him a bust, but he had a terrible season in AAA at 25. Can't blame AA for not jumping on that.

The only question mark is JD.  I remember reading that the Mets and Giants wanted him, but the only rumor I can recall is that AA asked the Mets for Conforto in return, and that was the end of that. So the question is, could we have gotten something less than Conforto but more than Lugo, a utility player and a lotto ticket? I think the answer is yes, but we would have still been disappointed with the return, and it would have been harder to say we are going for it in 17 without JD - or a reasonable replacement - in the opening day lineup. 

I also think we got more in the surplus from the other deals to makeup for the bad timing/package on JD.

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The Verlander return changed so much for me. I never imagined they would get three guys of the caliber they got for him. 

And that wilson trade was also very good. 

Going into the season, there was always the chance that the year down would happen. I think where we stand now is better than what I expected. 

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On 9/5/2017 at 0:47 PM, Shelton said:

The Verlander return changed so much for me. I never imagined they would get three guys of the caliber they got for him. 

 

I am not surprised at what they got.  I don't think he would have been traded if they couldn't get that kind of return.  I did not think they would get a lot for him in July, but once he got on a roll, I figured they could get a pretty good prospect package for him.  Of course, I don't love prospects, so maybe I am underestimating what they got.  I will say that the Wilson trade looks really good.  They got closer value for someone who I don't think is that great of a reliever.    

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40 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

I am not surprised at what they got.  I don't think he would have been traded if they couldn't get that kind of return.  I did not think they would get a lot for him in July, but once he got on a roll, I figured they could get a pretty good prospect package for him.  Of course, I don't love prospects, so maybe I am underestimating what they got.  I will say that the Wilson trade looks really good.  They got closer value for someone who I don't think is that great of a reliever.    

Thank the 2014-2015 KC Royals and 2016 Cleveland Indians for the J. Wilson return. Sign of the times that a 8-9th inning relief guy and platoon catcher fetched more than a middle-of-order hitter with a 150 OPs+ over the last 4 years. 

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1 hour ago, tiger337 said:

I am not surprised at what they got.  I don't think he would have been traded if they couldn't get that kind of return.  I did not think they would get a lot for him in July, but once he got on a roll, I figured they could get a pretty good prospect package for him.  Of course, I don't love prospects, so maybe I am underestimating what they got.  I will say that the Wilson trade looks really good.  They got closer value for someone who I don't think is that great of a reliever.    

I'm surprised at both returns. I had basically accepted that Verlander was going to be traded before next season, and I did not think they would get as much as they did. The reaction I have seen seems to agree with that. 

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