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2018 Draft Pick Watch

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7 hours ago, Keepleyland2 said:

Was the hole pitching to contact/sinker belief thing just born out Porcello? When he started he was 19 with like zero years big league experience so I get why throwing sinkers might be good for him. 

I don't remember JV, Max, et all being told not to strike out guys. 

I think that was part of the push to JV. Leyland would complain pretty regularly that it was his K's that were driving his pitch count. To his credit I think JV mostly ignored them or pushed back and that is probably what ended Hernandez's gig in Det. That was simply where the game was going  - more K's and shorter starts. Pitchers understood what they needed to do be effective even if JL didn't see it or wouldn't accept it - but the live balls, live bats and the K-zone have made it so regardless.

I don't think Max ever let anyone coach him beside himself so no issue!

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11 hours ago, Keepleyland2 said:

Was the hole pitching to contact/sinker belief thing just born out Porcello? When he started he was 19 with like zero years big league experience so I get why throwing sinkers might be good for him. 

I don't remember JV, Max, et all being told not to strike out guys. 

I remember them talking about getting JV to pitch to contact prior to the 2008 season.

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The last few years more and more players have adjusted their swing to lift the ball more, which is the upper cut swing.  The natural enemy of an upper cut swing is a firm fastball up in the zone. For years Dave Duncan and the White Sox pitching coach, whose name escapes me right now, turned failing power pitchers around by teaching them how to pitch to contact. And with so many guys now being able to hit the long ball contact pitchers are at risk.

Both styles still work when executed properly of course. There were a few times in JV's career where for long stretches he looked like he was headed back towards the middle of the pack and maybe pitching to contact more might have been something to look at. But trying to turn a 25 year old JV , who could locate a 99 mph fastball into the 8th inning, is just old school stupidity.

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2 hours ago, Stanley68 said:

The last few years more and more players have adjusted their swing to lift the ball more, which is the upper cut swing.  The natural enemy of an upper cut swing is a firm fastball up in the zone. For years Dave Duncan and the White Sox pitching coach, whose name escapes me right now, turned failing power pitchers around by teaching them how to pitch to contact. And with so many guys now being able to hit the long ball contact pitchers are at risk.

Both styles still work when executed properly of course. There were a few times in JV's career where for long stretches he looked like he was headed back towards the middle of the pack and maybe pitching to contact more might have been something to look at. But trying to turn a 25 year old JV , who could locate a 99 mph fastball into the 8th inning, is just old school stupidity.

I think Rick Knapp was probably the main proponent of this philosophy, but to be fair, it was more attack the zone down, don't nibble and minimize pitch counts so you could go deep. I think every pitching coach believes in changing eye level, up down in out.

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42 minutes ago, Longgone said:

I think Rick Knapp was probably the main proponent of this philosophy, but to be fair, it was more attack the zone down, don't nibble and minimize pitch counts so you could go deep. I think every pitching coach believes in changing eye level, up down in out.

By pitching to contact I mean throwing a lot of 2 seamers and sliders around the knees. When you have the guy 1-2 stick to the plan, don't try a set up pitch in the hopes of a strikeout later on.  That type of stuff.

I agree all pitchers mix it up, but they have game plans.

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6 hours ago, Stanley68 said:

By pitching to contact I mean throwing a lot of 2 seamers and sliders around the knees. When you have the guy 1-2 stick to the plan, don't try a set up pitch in the hopes of a strikeout later on.  That type of stuff.

I agree all pitchers mix it up, but they have game plans.

Porcello and Sanchez would regularly get taken deep on two seamers at the knees, and then after the games JL would say they needed to keep the ball down more. Prior to Jeff Jones the Tigers really hadn't known what they are doing with pitching for a while and you can see that in the careers of JV and Max, who were both headstrong about pitching the way they wanted, versus Porcello, who was young enough to be more coachable but could have been a lot better a lot sooner as evidenced by the dramatic turnaround in his FB after Jeff Jones arrived and then his continuing effectiveness in Boston. But Ausmus was another pitch to contact fan.

I have to hope that between the analytics push and the presence of Anderson and Bosio this regime is better.

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13 hours ago, lordstanley said:

I just read the article. Interesting. 

I understand the sickening part of it.   But the lifetime shunning for one young transgression seems to be against the narrative of 2nd chances that people usually celebrate.   When I think of the scummy people that have gotten rehabbed publicly and given that 2nd chance (or 3rd) I feel that this kid should get one.

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26 minutes ago, LooseGoose said:

I understand the sickening part of it.   But the lifetime shunning for one young transgression seems to be against the narrative of 2nd chances that people usually celebrate.   When I think of the scummy people that have gotten rehabbed publicly and given that 2nd chance (or 3rd) I feel that this kid should get one.

I think I agree. And that's even though I'd bet he did was alleged.

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Interesting MLB.com article about the '76 draft in which the Tigers drafted Tram, Petry, Morris and Ozzie Smith.

I like this part: 

On Draft day, Trammell was given a pass by the hall monitor at his high school to leave class and go to the school office. He called home and was floored to learn that the Tigers had taken him in the second round.

https://www.mlb.com/news/tigers-drafted-three-hall-of-famers-in-1976/c-278161642

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1 minute ago, lordstanley said:

I think I agree. And that's even though I'd bet he did was alleged.

I certainly wouldn't bet against it.

 

I guess I look at it as a true youthful mistake and that he shouldn't be barred from ever getting past it.   Had this happened at 18 or 22 or 25 I'd feel differently.   I don't know the kid from boo but it seems like other than that he's not been a bad kid.  I'm really torn on it to be honest.

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Just now, lordstanley said:

I think I agree. And that's even though I'd bet he did was alleged.

He pleaded guilty

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The working theory I have read is that Mize is almost too advanced for the Tigers rebuilding process. He will either be wasting his prime in the high minors while the Tigers  try to drag out his arb clock. When he does get to the majors, more cheap years will wasted on terrible teams.

He's almost too mlb ready for the Tigers trajectory.

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56 minutes ago, kdog said:

The working theory I have read is that Mize is almost too advanced for the Tigers rebuilding process. He will either be wasting his prime in the high minors while the Tigers  try to drag out his arb clock. When he does get to the majors, more cheap years will wasted on terrible teams.

He's almost too mlb ready for the Tigers trajectory.

I just don't think we're that far off from wild card contention. Some things need to go right with some prospects and we need to make some good free agent pickups, but 2020 is not completely out of the question for a wild card card level team.

Still, I'd rather see them take Madrigal.

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Even though Avila and Chadd are two of the dumbest minds in baseball, there's no way they can screw this up.  Unless his UCL is on the verge of blowing up, Mize has got to be the pick.

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6 hours ago, lordstanley said:

Interesting MLB.com article about the '76 draft in which the Tigers drafted Tram, Petry, Morris and Ozzie Smith.

I like this part: 

On Draft day, Trammell was given a pass by the hall monitor at his high school to leave class and go to the school office. He called home and was floored to learn that the Tigers had taken him in the second round.

https://www.mlb.com/news/tigers-drafted-three-hall-of-famers-in-1976/c-278161642

I saw that, interesting. I don’t recall ever being aware that Ozzie was drafted by Detroit. Really good article/video.

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Just now, kdog said:

The working theory I have read is that Mize is almost too advanced for the Tigers rebuilding process. He will either be wasting his prime in the high minors while the Tigers  try to drag out his arb clock. When he does get to the majors, more cheap years will wasted on terrible teams.

He's almost too mlb ready for the Tigers trajectory.

Doesn't make sense. 

Let's just think about it, and the following is under the best case scenerio, even if Mize is ready for MLB at the start of next year (he's not) how is he so far ahead of everybody else. In 2019 Burrows will be at majors or pushing to it. Perez should be around AAA, as he will pitch the second half in AA this year and pitched AA last year. Manning should be pushing towards lakeland and Faedo in Erie. 

So even if Mize was ready at the start of next year, he'd only be, at most, a year ahead of everyone else. It's not like everybody else has a target of 2024.

If/When they draft Mize its really easy to see the Long term plan. Let, guys continue to build innings and a couple (mize, Burrows) make a couple of starts at the ML to take their lumps. Then a few more in 2020. By 2021 you are ready to be cooking with gas again. 

Now a pitcher or two will have to be traded for hitter, or sign as a FA. The question is is Fulmer part of that 2021 plan or do you move him for a couple of guys you think will fit better into that plan. 

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32 minutes ago, Keepleyland2 said:

If/When they draft Mize its really easy to see the Long term plan. Let, guys continue to build innings and a couple (mize, Burrows) make a couple of starts at the ML to take their lumps. Then a few more in 2020. By 2021 you are ready to be cooking with gas again. 

Now a pitcher or two will have to be traded for hitter, or sign as a FA. The question is is Fulmer part of that 2021 plan or do you move him for a couple of guys you think will fit better into that plan. 

Your rebuild is not going to get you to a WS before you have to sign some outside guys or resign some of your own guys to to FA level contracts (in our case could that could be players like Castellanos, Fulmer, Boyd etc.). You are never going to win it all with all pre-arb/arb players, that is kind of a crazy idea. That gets you the Oakland A's - a team that is just perpetually rebuilding and never getting near the  brass ring. It's OK to be pushing well past 100++ million in payroll once you are playing to win it all. 

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55 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

Your rebuild is not going to get you to a WS before you have to sign some outside guys or resign some of your own guys to to FA level contracts (in our case could that could be players like Castellanos, Fulmer, Boyd etc.). You are never going to win it all with all pre-arb/arb players, that is kind of a crazy idea. That gets you the Oakland A's - a team that is just perpetually rebuilding and never getting near the  brass ring. It's OK to be pushing well past 100++ million in payroll once you are playing to win it all. 

As long as you're not tied down by bad contracts.  Bad contracts and a weak farm system got the Tigers in this mess.

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I also liked this article by Fenech...

https://www.freep.com/story/sports/mlb/tigers/2018/05/27/detroit-tigers-casey-mize-mlb-draft/646203002/

Quote

“That’s what I need to be able to go out there and execute,” he says. “I take every pitch personally and I take every at-bat personally and I think it gives me some confidence, gives me some grit out there.”

 

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Just now, Gehringer_2 said:

Your rebuild is not going to get you to a WS before you have to sign some outside guys or resign some of your own guys to to FA level contracts (in our case could that could be players like Castellanos, Fulmer, Boyd etc.). You are never going to win it all with all pre-arb/arb players, that is kind of a crazy idea. That gets you the Oakland A's - a team that is just perpetually rebuilding and never getting near the  brass ring. It's OK to be pushing well past 100++ million in payroll once you are playing to win it all. 

Where did I say we were never going to sign a FA?

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2 hours ago, Keepleyland2 said:

Where did I say we were never going to sign a FA?

Right here:

4 hours ago, Keepleyland2 said:

If/When they draft Mize its really easy to see the Long term plan. Let, guys continue to build innings and a couple (mize, Burrows) make a couple of starts at the ML to take their lumps. Then a few more in 2020. By 2021 you are ready to be cooking with gas again. 

Now a pitcher or two will have to be traded for hitter, because we won't ever sign any in FA. The question is is Fulmer part of that 2021 plan or do you move him for a couple of guys you think will fit better into that plan. 

 

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Hi everyone. 

I don't think child molesters, even if they molested as children themselves, can become rehabilitated.  I guess I would need more information, and I don't want that information.  I think in today's sports world it would be impossible to take him.  Who is going to get a jersey of a convicted child molester? It adds way more distraction than any value he could bring. 

As far as the draft, you have to take the best player available regardless of position. I don't think you can have too much pitching, because trades and stuff.

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Is KL2 saying we won't ever sign a big time starter in free agency? That makes good sense. Hitting will available in free agency when then time comes to contend again.

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8 hours ago, Keepleyland2 said:

Where did I say we were never going to sign a FA?

LOL - my bad - I was agreeing with your basic premise that the idea a guy would be ready 'too soon' isn't what we should be worried about. And it was not so much a matter of FA, just that you will be (re-)signing some kind of more expensive contracts - in  fact IMO preferably your own guys, but maybe not (e.g Houston) before you get to the top.

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