Who is the Drizzle?

Justin Verlander Traded to Astros

559 posts in this topic

20 minutes ago, Shelton said:

I can't help but chuckle how quickly the narrative shifts. A week ago, anything involving JV was about an aging pitcher with an albatross contract that no team would take on, and even if the Tigers ate some money, they wouldn't get much back. There was very little discussion about an ace type pitcher available to be traded to any team. 

Now JV is suddenly the missing piece to a championship puzzle, where every Astros player figuratively ejaculated all over whatever inanimate object was nearby. Nightengale is planning a November parade through the flooded streets, and JV will be the rising tide that lifts all ships (and also lowers the tide).

Thats exactly what I was thinking as well.  I'm gonna try to watch it tonight but it's gonna be like seeing an ex with a better looking and more successful person.

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1 minute ago, Shelton said:

It doesn't surprise me. Rentals are still such a tricky thing to value, especially for teams that are wild card at best. For as great as he has been for Arizona, there is still a 50/50 chance that their season ends two days after the Tigers.  Same for Colorado, Yankees, and every other team that doesn't win it's division. And this year, the division winners were basically decided by mid July. And most of them had perfectly good options in the outfield corners. 

in the context of everyone going gaga over relievers and club control, it makes some sense. a lot of that context amazes me too tho. but he's still a significant upgrade to every team but the astros and dodgers.

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8 minutes ago, Shelton said:

See, I believe that anecdote. Cabrera was the talk of that offseason, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if DD was happy to stick with his plan for the Tigers, who had just been to the World Series in 2006 and then had a good season in 2007 with little thought that they wouldn't be competitive in 2008. 

But ilitch was more plugged in then, and with all that Cabrera talk, I could see him basically telling Dave to get it done, despite the cost. 

 

I think a good GM already has it in his head what he's willing to do and not do for certain players on the market. Ilitch certainly could have had a moment where he said that but I would imagine the wheels were already in motion, at least internally on Detroit's side.  Those are cute stories to tell at the press conference to pump up the boss.

 

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3 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

Thats exactly what I was thinking as well.  I'm gonna try to watch it tonight but it's gonna be like seeing an ex with a better looking and more successful person.

sleethfamily.jpg

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In late July, Buster Olney wrote a column on how the Yankees could get Verlander by trading us... Jacoby Ellsbury...

In his proposed deal, we'd get some salary relief, bc the Yankees would assume some of the 68 mil Ellsbury is guaranteed over the next three years.

But not the amount of salary relief we got trading him to the Astros, not to mention the three prospects we got in return. 

I like Olney, but thought that suggestion was completely asinine. And the thing is, he wasn't alone. I was listening to a fangraphs podcast posted after the trade, but recorded before, saying we'd have to eat a bunch of money and get very little in return for JV, so no trade would happen. 

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9 minutes ago, irvink said:

In late July, Buster Olney wrote a column on how the Yankees could get Verlander by trading us... Jacoby Ellsbury...

In his proposed deal, we'd get some salary relief, bc the Yankees would assume some of the 68 mil Ellsbury is guaranteed over the next three years.

But not the amount of salary relief we got trading him to the Astros, not to mention the three prospects we got in return. 

I like Olney, but thought that suggestion was completely asinine. And the thing is, he wasn't alone. I was listening to a fangraphs podcast posted after the trade, but recorded before, saying we'd have to eat a bunch of money and get very little in return for JV, so no trade would happen. 

I think a lot of people don't trust themselves to step outside of the objective data, which at the time was that JV was struggling and is 34.

Generational right arm - subjective. Best at fixing his mechanics - subjective.

At least the Astros (and Cubs) got to the right point, eventually.

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44 minutes ago, Who is the Drizzle? said:

I'm still amazed at how few teams went after JD. "Yeah he'll hit close to 50 hrs with a good OBP in a full-season, but we have this random guy who plays decent defense."

There was a long period of time when teams seemed to undervalue defense.  Now, they may actually be overvaluing it.   

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44 minutes ago, Oblong said:

I think a good GM already has it in his head what he's willing to do and not do for certain players on the market. Ilitch certainly could have had a moment where he said that but I would imagine the wheels were already in motion, at least internally on Detroit's side.  Those are cute stories to tell at the press conference to pump up the boss.

 

Sure, but I think there was a good chance that DD went into that winter with no intention of trading miller and maybin for Cabrera, content to take his contender and just keep winning, while having those two graduate to bigger roles for years to come. 

I wouldn't be surprised at all if he checked in with Florida about Cabrera and they said "Miller and maybin," and he said ok good to know and didn't pursue it further. 

I don't think he particularly liked having a crappy farm system. Look at post-2009 when he traded granderson and Jackson for younger players. Or when he traded fister. 

But if the boss asks what conversations you have had regarding Cabrera, and you report back that the cost is super high, and he says who cares get it done, I'll keep spending to fill out the roster so who needs a farm system, then you can operate differently. 

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4 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

Thats exactly what I was thinking as well.  I'm gonna try to watch it tonight but it's gonna be like seeing an ex with a better looking and more successful person.

Sorry--I can't relate to this.

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Verlander wins his debut for Houston, going 6.0 IP at Seattle with 1R 6H 1BB 7K. 103 pitches.

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Candelario gave his team the lead with a double and then scored the eventual game winning run.

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12 hours ago, Tenacious D said:

Sorry--I can't relate to this.

They were all institutionalized after dating you, I presume?

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1 hour ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

They were all institutionalized after dating you, I presume?

Does this count as an institution?  Asking for a friend . . .

heffff.jpg

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54 minutes ago, mickeyb105 said:

Does this count as an institution?  Asking for a friend . . .

heffff.jpg

Are those his daughters or granddaughters?

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That really stung watching him pitch in an Astros uniform last night. I'm glad we pulled the trigger on a deal and I don't think the prospect return/salary dump could have been any better for JV making what he does at 34, but... He's been my favorite baseball player since his 2006 rookie campaign when I was just 9. I had always hoped he would be a tiger for life. In the back of my head I can't help but think, "huh, well, maybe when we're back in contention he'll come back to join the back end of the rotation and finish off his career here." I'd really like that, but despite some relative plasuability, it's nothing more than a wishful sentiment.

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5 hours ago, Lifeguard said:

That really stung watching him pitch in an Astros uniform last night. I'm glad we pulled the trigger on a deal and I don't think the prospect return/salary dump could have been any better for JV making what he does at 34, but... He's been my favorite baseball player since his 2006 rookie campaign when I was just 9. I had always hoped he would be a tiger for life. In the back of my head I can't help but think, "huh, well, maybe when we're back in contention he'll come back to join the back end of the rotation and finish off his career here." I'd really like that, but despite some relative plasuability, it's nothing more than a wishful sentiment.

Yeah, same for me.

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Heyman with a wrap-up of the JV trade with some details I had not previously seen. The whole piece is well worth a read. Here are some highlights:

 

Quote

 

A scout who just went through Detroit and witnessed the rubble that’s left from the start of the remake says, “Their rebuild is going to be lo-o-o-o-ng.” (He dragged out the word as if to emphasize.)

The key, in the end, was pitching prospect Franklin Perez, who had been held out of the Astros’ other big-ticket talks for Jose Quintana, Sonny Gray and Zach Britton. The key also was Tigers GM Al Avila’s attention to detail. Knowing they were up against the deadline, Avila sent two baseball ops people over to Verlander’s apartment in Detroit to be in position to get a quick signature to waive his no-trade rights, if needed.

Still, the uncertainty surrounding the no-trade is why a Tigers person told FanRag Sports late in the afternoon on deadline day that a trade was “possible, but not probable.”

Things certainly took a giant step forward when the Astros called Avila at 10:30 p.m. and finally relented on Perez, which startled some folks close to him. A close friend of Perez at first didn’t believe he was in the deal. (The friend wasn’t necessarily disappointed, as Perez will likely get an earlier chance with Detroit — if anything, just surprised.) The other teams who’d heard “no” on Perez might have been surprised, too, that the Astros finally surrendered one of their vaunted top-six prospects.

The Tigers actually first asked for young pitcher Forrest Whitley, a late-first-round pick in the 2016 draft that’s impressed so much that he’s already up to Double-A as a 19-year-old and looks so good he might be picked in the top-three if that draft was redrafted (as Baseball America’s John Sickels noted). But the Astros were adamant that Whitley wasn’t going anywhere.

 

 

“I was surprised the Tigers paid down as little as they did,” yet another rival executive noted.

There’s little question Perez is the real deal, and he is the coup de gras of the trade. Scouts love Cameron’s talent and believe Rogers has a chance, too. But while all three players are top-100 prospects, a couple scouts suggested Cameron and Rogers could go either way, which isn’t a surprise in a package of three.

Cameron is considered “toolsy” with great speed and an arm, and one scout said Cameron could be a Melvin Upton Jr. type player, which wouldn’t be bad at all as a second player in package of three (or even a Mike Cameron player, said another; that would be terrific, of course). Another scout liked Rogers’ defense and power potential. But a third scout, who stipulated that both Cameron and Rogers are strong defenders, called Rogers only “solid” and wondered how much either young player would hit.

 


 

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On ‎9‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 10:40 AM, Sports_Freak said:

Are those his daughters or granddaughters?

That reminds me of a story years ago.  When the Pistons won the championship with Larry Brown as the head coach, my mom was talking to me about the series against the Lakers.  At some point she said something like Larry's daughter is really beautiful, to which I had to say, 'that isn't his daughter, that is his wife...'

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Part of the Callis / Mayo discussion on the trade:

 

Quote

 

Callis: But from the Tigers' standpoint, they got two good prospects. They didn't get Whitley and Tucker, but Franklin Perez has a pretty solid chance to be a No. 3 starter. He has advanced pitchability for a young guy. Daz Cameron, who we've talked about on the podcast a number of times, was a supplemental first-round pick in 2015. He signed for $4 million and really started to pick it up in the second half of this season. He's always going to kind of be tied into his dad, who was a standout big leaguer, and for what it's worth, his dad got off to a slow start in the Minor Leagues as well. So Daz could really be coming into his own.

Then Jake Rogers, when he came out of the 2016 Draft, I had scouts tell me they thought he was the best defensive player in the Draft at any position. He has a great arm. He is a great receiver. The question was whether he could hit. He hit .233 at Tulane without much power. This year he made some adjustments. He's not so pull-happy. He's improved his timing at the plate. I don't think he's going to win a batting title, but he now looks like he'll hit more than enough to be a regular. I think the Tigers did really well to get those three guys and to get out from under Verlander's contract and also Justin Upton's contract, as they look to rebuild. The Astros did a nice job getting a guy like Verlander without having to sacrifice their two untouchable prospects.

 

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/253179738/podcast-prospects-involved-in-verlander-trade/?topicid=151437456

 

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The better JV pitches the happier I am with this trade. We got a more than fair return and I want nothing more than to see him continue to dominate on a hall of fame tread, ESPECIALLY with a team from a city recently swept by disaster. 

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Heyman's Latest. JV and more...

  • Quote

     

    •  To expand on what was written in this space last week, the Tigers assumed everything was dead by 6 p.m. on Aug. 31 after making it known what it would take for them to trade Justin Verlander. “We all hold Justin Verlander in high regard. I’m sure he’ll go into the Hall of Fame one day with a Tigers cap on. So either we were going to make a good deal, or he’d be the Opening Day starter for us in 2018,” Tigers GM Al Avila said by phone. The Astros, early on, declined to trade Forrest Whitley or Kyle Tucker, and while sides discussed Yordan Alvarez some after that, Avila gave the Astros his bottom line around dinner time, assumed things were dead when the Astros said no, then hosted the staff at his house to watch games and wait by the phone (just in case). The Astros called back at 10:30, agreeing to what the Tigers said was their absolute bottom line – Franklin Perez, Daz Cameron and Jake Rogers.
    • While the Tigers like their pitching prospect stash, and rightfully so (in addition to Perez, Alex Faedo, Beau Burrows, Matt Manning, Kyle Funkhouser and others), they understand there’s a decent chance they’ll need to trade for hitters when they’re ready to win in a few years.
    • For a change, they also have a high pick next year (No. 4 at present), and as one Tigers person joked, “the No. 1 pick the year after.”
    • Avila talked multiple times to Upton’s agent Larry Reynolds as well as Upton before doing the deal with the Angels, who it turns out were the only serious suitor (that shouldn’t be a shock – not only did Upton, who had $90 million potentially to go, clear waivers, but so did several other outfielders, including even Jay Bruce, who had only $3.5 million to go) — and it seems clear Upton much preferred to go to a contender. The Tigers believed at that time there was a decent chance he’d opt out of the $90 million he had to go with Detroit, but they preferred not to take that chance, as it wouldn’t make sense to continue carrying him on the roster during their rebuild.
    • Avila has talked with Ian Kinsler, who has told him he’d be fine if he traded him, and that he’d pitch in if he kept him during the rebuild (others suggest Kinsler would prefer to be dealt to a contender – not a shock there).
    • The Brewers, Rays and Angels were the three teams that showed strong interest in Kinsler in trading season, with either the Angels or Rays making the claim. (No one has said for sure.). The Blue Jays could also make sense if Devon Travis doesn’t recover quickly from his knee issue.
    • One rival suggested the remaining team lately “does not look motivated” on the field, which may not bode well for Brad Ausmus if his bosses observe the same. Avila has been a supporter. But the guess here has been that Ausmus will be a better manager his second time around.
    • It’s been a rough year for the Tigers all around, and Michael Fulmer’s nerve transposition surgery is the latest concern. They say it requires a 2-4 month recovery period, but Tigers people expect him at full health for next year. (In Tommy John surgeries, nerves are transposed, and this isn’t nearly as extensive or as serious a worry.)
    • Jeimer Candelario, who came from the Cubs, is off to a nice start at third.

     

    https://www.fanragsports.com/inside-baseball-al-notes-is-kluber-new-favorite-for-cy-young/

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I also heard that one of the conditions for Verlander to accept the trade is for them to wave his vesting option.  That makes sense for him since it only happens if he finishes in the top 5 in the Cy, and if he is still good enough to do that then you figure he would get a multi year contract from somebody worth more than the option.  

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For a change, they also have a high pick next year (No. 4 at present), and as one Tigers person joked, “the No. 1 pick the year after.”

hilarious stuff, keep the laughs coming guys!

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