Casimir

07/27/2017 Guaranteed No Loss Today

80 posts in this topic

40 minutes ago, John_Brian_K said:

I did not see the play, but I would say running through a stop sign at thiiird when you are up over 10 or so in the 9th inning...if not bush league is at least VERY poor form.

Just running hard with the thiird base coach waving you in...sure no big deal...the stop sign (I did not see it, but if that is what happened) is what would make it a big deal IMO.

I always want my team to score as many runs as possible.  There is no clock in baseball.  

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3 minutes ago, Shelton said:

I think it's relatively common to use a HBP as retaliation for breaking an unwritten rule. I don't know what all of the unwritten rules are, but they obviously exist. 

I think if you bunt in the 9th inning of a no hitter when the game is also out of reach, that can earn you a HBP. 

I think if you talk trash at a pitcher while rounding the bases you will get a HBP. 

Stealing bases late in a game when the game is out of hand probably qualifies. 

A batter looking at the catcher's signs. 

 

I don't think the retaliatory HBP is going anywhere. But they could reduce them if they start handing out bigger suspensions for doing it. 

This might be crazy, but given the situation, maybe if Rondon wouldn't have been tossing up 90 MPH meatballs, maybe this situation doesn't present itself?  Its kind of on Rondon that Kansas City was in position to score, was it not?

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I have to say, I just really dislike hosmer, and I wouldn't be surprised if his veteran presence has an effect on the other royals players. 

He was a pretty big jerk to that writer from fangraphs a few years ago. That never sat well with me. 

Here is a link to that if you haven't seen it:

http://www.hardballtimes.com/learning-the-language-of-the-clubhouse/

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6 minutes ago, Casimir said:

This might be crazy, but given the situation, maybe if Rondon wouldn't have been tossing up 90 MPH meatballs, maybe this situation doesn't present itself?  Its kind of on Rondon that Kansas City was in position to score, was it not?

Of course. I already yada yada'd that position. 

I just think that despite that there is still a decision to be made by other players whether they are going to be jerks or not. The third base coach understood that. Cain had other ideas. 

This is still on rondon. I'm just saying I understand why he was upset. A more mature player doesn't let it bother him. Rondon lacks that maturity. 

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15 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

I always want my team to score as many runs as possible.  There is no clock in baseball.  

What does the lack of clock have to do with it? Sports with game clocks have situations where the winning team calls off the dogs so to speak. 

Baseball has outs remaining. Other sports have time remaining. Both of them are effectively a limit on the number of opportunities left to come back. 

I think there is definitely a case for teams that are winning big to pump the brakes a bit and just see the game out. There are benefits to doing that, too. You can rest players. You can give backups a chance to play. You can reduce injury. You can reduce the chance that the losing team gets pissed off and frustrating and their emotions boil over and result in a brawl or fight. 

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To be fair, it is possible, albeit highly unlikely, to win a game being down 15 runs with one out remaining.

It is not physically possible to score 20 points in 10 seconds or less in football or basketball, or score 3+ goals in hockey or soccer.  So there is effectively be a point of no return prior to the final whistle in timed sports during a blow-out because there is a limit to how many points a team can get in a play, and a scoring play requires some fixed amount of time.  Baseball never truly has such a point of no return.

I would agree with the sentiment that this is a distinction without much difference.

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7 minutes ago, Shelton said:

What does the lack of clock have to do with it? Sports with game clocks have situations where the winning team calls off the dogs so to speak. 

Baseball has outs remaining. Other sports have time remaining. Both of them are effectively a limit on the number of opportunities left to come back. 

I think there is definitely a case for teams that are winning big to pump the brakes a bit and just see the game out. There are benefits to doing that, too. You can rest players. You can give backups a chance to play. You can reduce injury. You can reduce the chance that the losing team gets pissed off and frustrating and their emotions boil over and result in a brawl or fight. 

Sure, you can rest players and give backups a chance to play, but whoever is still in the game should keep trying to score runs.  

 

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But they shouldn't ignore the instruction from their coaches.

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5 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

But they shouldn't ignore the instruction from their coaches.

I think they should follow the coaches instructions most of the time, but it is not uncommon for players to run through stop signs.  If a veteran players thinks he can score he should try to score regardless of the run differential at the moment.  From what I read, it wasn't even a close play at the plate.

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12 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

But they shouldn't ignore the instruction from their coaches.

Can the coaches bean ball them during the next batting practice after an infraction such as what happened last night?  Is this in the unwritten rules manuscript?

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1 minute ago, Casimir said:

Can the coaches bean ball them during the next batting practice after an infraction such as what happened last night?  Is this in the unwritten rules manuscript?

They can, but they run the risk of getting fungo-ed upside the head.

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16 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

I think they should follow the coaches instructions most of the time, but it is not uncommon for players to run through stop signs.  If a veteran players thinks he can score he should try to score regardless of the run differential at the moment.  From what I read, it wasn't even a close play at the plate.

I understand it isn't uncommon for a player to run through a stop sign, but it seems likely to me, in this circumstance, the coach understood how it would be received to score on the play, so he put up the stop sign.

The coach decided the value of the extra run wasn't worth the risk of a beaning or fight.

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21 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

I understand it isn't uncommon for a player to run through a stop sign, but it seems likely to me, in this circumstance, the coach understood how it would be received to score on the play, so he put up the stop sign.

The coach decided the value of the extra run wasn't worth the risk of a beaning or fight.

Yes, the coach was playing within the unwritten rules.  Speaking as a fan, I do not care about unwritten rules.  I do not think it is ever bush league for a player to try to score a run when he knows he can. It is bush league for a team to give up 16 runs.  

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9 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Is running through signs is bush league?

No, a coach would be bush league if players kept running through his signs and scoring.  A player would be bush league if he consistently ran through signs and failed to score.  

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With this being an off-day, it might be an opportunity for Rondon to gain some weight.

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11 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

Yes, the coach was playing within the unwritten rules.  Speaking as a fan, I do not care about unwritten rules.  I do not think it is ever bush league for a player to try to score a run when he knows he can. It is bush league for a team to give up 16 runs.  

Speaking as a fan, sure. I want my team to pile it on. If my team is getting smoked, I don't fault another team from continuing to pile it on. 

I don't think the players or coaches agree. They have all been on both sides of a blowout. 

 

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So if the next guy gets injured when he is beaned, should the guy that scored on the play preceding it feel slightly responsible about the outcome?

I'd hate it if a teammate got injured in response to something I did, even if I am just trying to win.

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Also not sure if scoring absolves running through a stop sign.

Just because the OF made an uncharacteristically bad throw or the game situation specifics (tie game, no outs, no one else on, for example) does not necessarily mean going was worth the risk of being thrown out at the time the decision was made.

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8 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

So if the next guy gets injured when he is beaned, should the guy that scored on the play preceding it feel slightly responsible about the outcome?

I'd hate it if a teammate got injured in response to something I did, even if I am just trying to win.

No, Rondon would be responsible.  He is the one who beaned him.  Again, I am looking at this as a fan and how I think the game should be played.  If the players and coaches want to play by the unwritten rules, that is their business.  My feeling is a team should try to score as many runs as possible and the team that gave up 16 runs should be embarrassed at themselves for playing so poorly.  

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1 hour ago, tiger337 said:

I always want my team to score as many runs as possible.  There is no clock in baseball.  

I would be a little embarrassed if it was the Tigers doing the exact same thing.  14-2 or whatever in the 4th inning is a MUCH different animal than 14-2 in the 9th IMO.  Maybe even the 8th I can see, but running through the stop in the 9th...I just don't like it.  Easier to brush off when you win, but still not a good look IMO.

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I just looked up 'greatest 9th inning comebacks in history' and could not find a ninth inning come back that ranked.  There were some in the 8th inning, but nothing in the 9th.  Maybe there are a couple I missed, but in the 9th inning...I just think it is really bad form.

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Where is HolyGoat?  He is the one who usually agrees with me in this argument.  

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13 minutes ago, John_Brian_K said:

I would be a little embarrassed if it was the Tigers doing the exact same thing.  14-2 or whatever in the 4th inning is a MUCH different animal than 14-2 in the 9th IMO.  Maybe even the 8th I can see, but running through the stop in the 9th...I just don't like it.  Easier to brush off when you win, but still not a good look IMO.

It's not a good look for the Tigers to give up 16 runs.  

At what point do you think it's OK for a team to let up and take it easy on the opponent?

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9 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

Where is HolyGoat?  He is the one who usually agrees with me in this argument.  

I don't disagree with you, honestly.  You should be trying to score.

But realistically a player should know that at some point the other team is going to take exception even if it is irrational.  Alternately, when the actual benefit of scoring increases your odds of winning by less than 0.00001%, I think it is ok to take other factors into consideration.

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