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JD Traded to Arizona

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Just now, chasfh said:

Was that a rebuild, or a teardown? Wasn't he ordered to by Huizenga just as the Marlins were celebrating a title?

Either way, I still maintain that Dave Dombrowski is not a rebuilding GM.

If he isn't a "rebuilding GM" than there is no such thing. I guess we just don't agree. He built 4 teams that went to the world series.

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Just now, Sports_Freak said:

If he isn't a "rebuilding GM" than there is no such thing. I guess we just don't agree. He built 4 teams that went to the world series.

He built the Tiger pennant winners by trading for and signing major leaguers, not by liquidating current major leaguers for prospects to play the long game.

Which were the rebuilding seasons he had with which other teams?

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12 minutes ago, chasfh said:

He built the Tiger pennant winners by trading for and signing major leaguers, not by liquidating current major leaguers for prospects to play the long game.

Which were the rebuilding seasons he had with which other teams?

Here, let me read that story for you:

Quote

By all rights, after steering the Marlins to a world championship in their fifth season, Dombrowski should have received the recognition he was due as one of the game’s best GMs. But just as the strike tainted his legacy in Montreal, his legacy in Miami came undone through no fault of his own. Following the playoffs, Marlins owner Wayne Huizenga immediately ordered the franchise be stripped to the bone. The defending world champions resembled a Triple-A team in 1998, losing 108 games. It was an embarrassment to baseball, and it began the raze-and-rebuild cycle that makes the Marlins an embarrassment to this day.

Dombrowski wasn’t asked to turn lemons into lemonade; he was given chicken **** and told to fix up a chicken sandwich. And damned if he didn’t pull it off. Brown brought back a rookie named Derrek Lee; Leiter brought back a prospect named A.J. Burnett. The Marlins drafted Josh Beckett and signed a 16-year-old kid out of Venezuela named Miguel Cabrera. In 2003, the Marlins won another championship.

 

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1 hour ago, mickeyb105 said:

True story.

It's true when forced to rebuild after the horrific teardown, Dombrowski traded for some of the good players who was on those 2003 champions: Derrek Lee, Mike Lowell, Josh Beckett, Brad Penny, Braden Looper. They were all important parts of that team. They also won the bidding on Miggy as a 16 year old can't miss AFA. Most of the biggest contributors on that team—Pudge, Luis Castillo, Juan Pierre, Alex Gonzalez, Jeff Conine, Dontrelle, Mark Redman, Carl Pavano, Urbina—came either before the teardown, or after DD had left. So he definitely gets partial credit for that rebuild.

I can't think of any other situations he's participated in, in which the prevailing tactic was trade major league veterans for prospects.

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So AA picks up JD from Houston for nothing. We get  3.5 years of great production for him and then AA trades him for 3 prospects that are all better than a 4th round draft pick and people want to fire him ?  I guess he never should of signed him in the first place.

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9 minutes ago, socaltiger said:

So AA picks up JD from Houston for nothing. We get  3.5 years of great production for him and then AA trades him for 3 prospects that are all better than a 4th round draft pick and people want to fire him ?  I guess he never should of signed him in the first place.

should'of

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30 minutes ago, socaltiger said:

So AA picks up JD from Houston for nothing. We get  3.5 years of great production for him and then AA trades him for 3 prospects that are all better than a 4th round draft pick and people want to fire him ?  I guess he never should of signed him in the first place.

Getting him for nothing has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not he made a good trade.

Simply getting better than a 4th round pick for the best available bat is an incredibly low standard. 

Fired for one trade? No. His inability to acquire talent, yes. 

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Kind of strange seeing JD's name in the 5th spot of ARI line-up. Slotted in right behind Goldschmidt

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11 minutes ago, rhino said:

Kind of strange seeing JD's name in the 5th spot of ARI line-up. Slotted in right behind Goldschmidt

Goldschmidt's life just got better.

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30 minutes ago, Yoda said:

Getting him for nothing has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not he made a good trade.

Simply getting better than a 4th round pick for the best available bat is an incredibly low standard. 

Fired for one trade? No. His inability to acquire talent, yes. 

Just from the standpoint of the thought exercise, if it's 1 minute until the deadline, and a team offers you a single player that is better than a fourth round pick for JD, you kind of have to take it, right? (This is assuming the tigers have a 10% or less at a playoff spot).

i agree that better than a fourth rounder is a low hurdle to clear, but it's not like the return we did get is just barely better than a fourth rounder or something. 

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I wonder how the Tigers position prospects would be ranked. I admit that their lack of any good ones means I don't know many that exist outside of Stewart, gerber, and JaCoby. 

If I had to guess a ranking of guys I remember:

stewart

lugo

jacoby

Hill

Gerber

alcantara

king

 

im not saying king is our sixth best position prospect. I just don't remember many others. Ficocello? Simcox? Some international signings? I really have no idea. I think there is some Australian 3b. I guess there is cam Gibson. Oh Derek hill!! Forgot about him. I'll slit him in there now like I never forgot. There are probably like 4 catchers that qualify as prospects. Man the system sucks. 

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3 minutes ago, Shelton said:

I wonder how the Tigers position prospects would be ranked. I admit that their lack of any good ones means I don't know many that exist outside of Stewart, gerber, and JaCoby. 

If I had to guess a ranking of guys I remember:

stewart

lugo

jacoby

Hill

Gerber

alcantara

king

 

im not saying king is our sixth best position prospect. I just don't remember many others. Ficocello? Simcox? Some international signings? I really have no idea. I think there is some Australian 3b. I guess there is cam Gibson. Oh Derek hill!! Forgot about him. I'll slit him in there now like I never forgot. There are probably like 4 catchers that qualify as prospects. Man the system sucks. 

It sure does. And it has for a while. I like DD and his ability to build a winning team but drafting and developing young talent wasn't/isn't one of his strengths.

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The team is not going to be good unless they keep spending a lot of money, and if the owners don't want to spend money they should sell the team. Owning a sports franchise is a vanity project for the super rich, not a company that should be run to make the highest possible profit. It's bad enough the public are funding the pizza palace and giving the guy tons of tax breaks. They make billions of dollars selling mediocre at best pizzas every year.

Mr. I did it for years, and he's going to be remembered as an all time great owner. The kids can either follow in his footsteps and start paying for players like JD, or get out. 

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29 minutes ago, Shelton said:

Just from the standpoint of the thought exercise, if it's 1 minute until the deadline, and a team offers you a single player that is better than a fourth round pick for JD, you kind of have to take it, right? (This is assuming the tigers have a 10% or less at a playoff spot).

i agree that better than a fourth rounder is a low hurdle to clear, but it's not like the return we did get is just barely better than a fourth rounder or something. 

You keep JD, peddle Upton instead, and give JD the contract he's earned.  If Upton can't be moved at the deadline, try to move him again if he opts in. 

But move Verlander before the deadline for cap relief and prospects. 

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11 minutes ago, mickeyb105 said:

You keep JD, peddle Upton instead, and give JD the contract he's earned.  If Upton can't be moved at the deadline, try to move him again if he opts in. 

But move Verlander before the deadline for cap relief and prospects. 

Yeah. Trade Verlander for prospects and money relief. It doesn't matter to us that everyone already said there's no way another team will pick up his contract, let alone give up quality prospects for him. Maybe, just maybe, some stupid team will give us a B prospect IF we pick up most of his contract. Otherwise we're stuck paying him for the duration. Unless he starts pitching to his contract. But then we wouldn't want to trade away a stud ace.

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17 minutes ago, mickeyb105 said:

You keep JD, peddle Upton instead, and give JD the contract he's earned.  If Upton can't be moved at the deadline, try to move him again if he opts in. 

But move Verlander before the deadline for cap relief and prospects. 

JD is going to be way overpaid in his next contract. Sorry, but he will never be a Tiger again. We're going to go young and cheap.

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3 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

JD is going to be way overpaid in his next contract. Sorry, but he will never be a Tiger again. We're going to go young and cheap.

JD doesn't turn 30 for another month. If they can get him on a 4 or 5-year deal, he should be productive for that time, assuming good health, which is another debate. 

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I've said before that they should try to sign JD this offseason, regardless of upton, but now I'm not so sure. I think JD fits better with a team that will have a semi open DH spot. His defense is pretty bad now, and is going to look even worse as he gets older. He would still be a great player, but for the money I think they can do better. 

If upton opts out, I would try to re-sign him instead of JD. 

All this speculation is such a waste of time, though. I keep doing it, but it's impossible to say what this team will look like in 2018 and beyond. 

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Does this "poor" return and lack of interest in JD...or lack of a need for a player like JD ( big bat, poor defender and base runner) mean that his value is not as high as his agent thinks ? Maybe more in line with 4/ 70 than 5/100 ? And perhaps this difference is why Avila "had" to trade him rather than extend him...the fact that he over values himself ?

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5 minutes ago, socaltiger said:

Does this "poor" return and lack of interest in JD...or lack of a need for a player like JD ( big bat, poor defender and base runner) mean that his value is not as high as his agent thinks ? Maybe more in line with 4/ 70 than 5/100 ? And perhaps this difference is why Avila "had" to trade him rather than extend him...the fact that he over values himself ?

I would say the opposite. Teams know he'll be expensive which makes it harder to give up a lot for him if they don't think they can sign him. 

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5 minutes ago, Shelton said:

I've said before that they should try to sign JD this offseason, regardless of upton, but now I'm not so sure. I think JD fits better with a team that will have a semi open DH spot. His defense is pretty bad now, and is going to look even worse as he gets older. He would still be a great player, but for the money I think they can do better. 

If upton opts out, I would try to re-sign him instead of JD. 

All this speculation is such a waste of time, though. I keep doing it, but it's impossible to say what this team will look like in 2018 and beyond. 

Young and cheap. At least those are the indications I get. JD was a once in a lifetime deal. We got him off of waivers and he hit nearly 100 homers in less than 3 seasons. And we got 3 players for him. Hopefully one or two of them work out for us.

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What I liked best about this trade was Al Avilia talking about how Lugo is good both offensively and defensively.."both sides of the table" I think is how he put it. If this marks a true commitment to Defense and Offense and developing our farm system rather than just expensive "bats" then we will be all the better for it. Its why Upton is more valuable than JD..he can run the bases and make a play in the field.

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3 minutes ago, Yoda said:

I would say the opposite. Teams know he'll be expensive which makes it harder to give up a lot for him if they don't think they can sign him. 

I doubt any team evaluated JD for more than the rental period.

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