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Pistons sign Anthony Tolliver

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I doubt Stan said no to that being that he was fine with trading KCP for Bradley. In both cases it's an older, shorter contract, fully realized version of the other player

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1 hour ago, DaBishop said:

What moves would you have liked to see them make this off-season that would change the tenor of your posts? Is there anything realistic they could have done that you wouldn't be complaining about?

in a perfect world they blow it up and start over.

since this isnt a perfect world, i would have been happy with them trading andre for something.  i dont think they go anywhere with andre on a max contract.  for someone with so much promise he has been a great disappointment.

if they deal andre, i would have re-signed kcp for something in the $20 million a year range if that was possible.

in a vacuum, i'm fine with morris for bradley.  i think thats a good deal.  but you cant really look at it that way.  you have to take all of the moves that led up to it: boban for $7 million to do nothing, leuer for $10.5, stretching josh smith, signing galloway immediately for $6 instead of waiting, and most egregiously, letting monroe and kcp walk for nothing.  thats brutal, imo.

so can you answer my question, or do you need to ask me another question first?

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53 minutes ago, Buddha said:

in a perfect world they blow it up and start over.

since this isnt a perfect world, i would have been happy with them trading andre for something.  i dont think they go anywhere with andre on a max contract.  for someone with so much promise he has been a great disappointment.

if they deal andre, i would have re-signed kcp for something in the $20 million a year range if that was possible.

in a vacuum, i'm fine with morris for bradley.  i think thats a good deal.  but you cant really look at it that way.  you have to take all of the moves that led up to it: boban for $7 million to do nothing, leuer for $10.5, stretching josh smith, signing galloway immediately for $6 instead of waiting, and most egregiously, letting monroe and kcp walk for nothing.  thats brutal, imo.

so can you answer my question, or do you need to ask me another question first?

I answered it. go back and read it the prior post if you need to.

As for a few of the issues you mentioned...

- Leuer, no one would be saying boo about that contract had he been left on the bench. I'm guessing he goes back to the bench and will go back to be a great deal as everyone was saying throughout the first 2/3rds of the season. His TS% off the bench was 58%, avg'd more rebounds, more blocks and his O-Rating was a phenomenal 116. heck even shot better from beyond the arc for what it was worth (not much). Defensively i have no stats but eveything I heard prior to him going to the starting line-up was that the line-ups he was part of were our best defensive line-ups.

- Boban - I think that had Stan split time with Boban and Baynes, particularly when Baynes was playing awful, he is guaranteed to opt in as he'd have no market. How screwed would we be this year had Baynes opted in? the intention all year was to keep Boban on the bench. I'm blown away by how few people see this. Had Baynes started off the year the way he ended I think you see him moved via trade (and thought it was a mistake not to move him anyway). When Boban's on the floor you see quite clearly that at least on the offensive side of the floor he is going to be worth the 7/yr.

- I have no issue with stretching Smith. Wish he'd have traded him prior to the season but once the season was in swing it would have required giving a pick away to move him. The complete turn around of the team after he left was worth it.

His two egregiously bad moves were not moving Smith prior to his first season, and not trading Moose away. I have zero issue with the majority of his other moves. Some didn't work, some worked great, others are TBD.

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2 hours ago, DaBishop said:

That's not the point. The point is your complaints are unwarranted.

In answer to your question, however, I think they did what they could to alter this roster. No NBA team is going to throw in the towel on a player like AD at 23 yo, and frankly I don't really want them to just yet. I also don't want them to treat Reggie like Ben Gordon and ship away a 1st just to get him off the roster.

I think they are better then last year with Avery Bradley who is just now entering his prime so improvement isn't just possible but likely.

I think I am happy to see Morris gone because I thought he had no business in the starting line-up. At least if SJ or Leuer start they won't take 13 shots per game while shooting an awful % which can only help our offense which was the real issue last year.

I think this team went from being one of the worst shooting teams in the league to a middle of the pack at least team. Out of our starting line-up went  Morris (42%/33%) KCP(40%/35%) and in come Bradley(46%/39%) and Harris (48%/35%). Galloway, Tolliver and Kennard should also help. This was a huge problem this team had last year playing 4 out 1 in.

All this said, most importantly, I think this team is unfortunately tied to the health of Reggie's knee and SVG's ability to get AD to stop posting up and taking shots from outside of 3ft. If both can be answered in the positive then I think we're actually pretty close to the team that finished out 2016, even better. If we can't, then yes we're fighting for an 8th seed.

I do not however think they sat on their hands. I don't think this is the same team as last year or even 2 years ago. I think they're moving in a positive direction compared to last year but until we know about the other two issues, we are not moving in a positive direction from 2 years ago. Rather than crying and whining about some magical wand that can be waved to solve all our problems, I'll wait and see before spelling the death knell.

fair enough.

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Ignoring the value of AB as a very good trade deadline asset is a mistake for those intent on criticizing the Morris for AB and a 2nd rounder deal. 

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Just now, mickeyb105 said:

Ignoring the value of AB as a very good trade deadline asset is a mistake for those intent on criticizing the Morris for AB and a 2nd rounder deal. 

you think they'll trade him?

i think they are much more likely to deal a first round pick for a veteran in order to make a playoff push than deal bradley for assets.  

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I doubt he's traded, but if the season is completely off the rails, the future is bleak and it wouldn't make much sense to try signing him with the bird rights. So adding a pick in the 20s wouldn't be the worst thing. 

This season really seems like it is going to be pivotal regarding whether they will keep on going with a low seed playoff team just for kicks, or whether they will enter tank mode. 

Best case scenario is drummond takes a step forward and Reggie is healthy, and the shooters on the roster make a difference and the team somehow gets a 4 or 5 seed and plays entertaining basketball. 

Worst case is they suck as much as last year and will be stuck with a capped out team that can't win any games and Bradley has no interest in sticking around even if they wanted to pay the tax and keep him. 

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10 minutes ago, Deleterious said:

Even if they trade him, he has little value. FRP in the 20s most likely.

Package him with Dre as a pot sweetener IMO. 

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Little late to this thread but how can anyone be upset at this move?  Buddha's always upset so there's that but still....

Cheap 1 year deal for a good bench shooter who is a good locker room guy.  Seems fine to me.

The Galloway deal is something to ***** about.  Still trying to understand the logic behind that move.  He can shoot threes pretty well but did they really need an expensive #3 pg?

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Can anyone with the knowledge of how the rotation/minutes/three point attempts are likely to break down this year compare the upcoming season with last season. 

Morris took 357 attempts last year, hitting at 33%. KCP took 437, hitting 35%.

Galloway took 308 and hit 39%.

bradley took 277 and hit 39%. He took 407 the year before and hit 36%. 

It's not a one for one comparison, but if the Pistons replace 800 attempts hit at about 34% with 800 attempts hit at 37%, that's close to a point a game, and would have made them a .500 team. 

Last season, they made 15% fewer threes and attempted 10% fewer. They hit at a rate of .330, down from .345 the year before. 

They also allowed 25% more attempts and 28% more makes. 

These moves that have been made seem to be tailored to improving the three point numbers. It's incremental, but that can still make a big difference. 

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26 minutes ago, Deleterious said:

To be fair, the Pistons organization has given Buddha plenty of reasons to be upset in the past decade.  

some people are happy with being 8th in the east and some people think the pistons can do better than that.

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53 minutes ago, Shelton said:

Can anyone with the knowledge of how the rotation/minutes/three point attempts are likely to break down this year compare the upcoming season with last season. 

Morris took 357 attempts last year, hitting at 33%. KCP took 437, hitting 35%.

Galloway took 308 and hit 39%.

bradley took 277 and hit 39%. He took 407 the year before and hit 36%. 

It's not a one for one comparison, but if the Pistons replace 800 attempts hit at about 34% with 800 attempts hit at 37%, that's close to a point a game, and would have made them a .500 team. 

Last season, they made 15% fewer threes and attempted 10% fewer. They hit at a rate of .330, down from .345 the year before. 

They also allowed 25% more attempts and 28% more makes. 

These moves that have been made seem to be tailored to improving the three point numbers. It's incremental, but that can still make a big difference. 

It isn't even close to being perfect.  But per/36 can give us some idea.

3kikRmG.png

I'm simply using their per/36 numbers from last year and assuming they can replicate them.  

I broke their per/36 numbers down into a per minute rate then multiplied that by the minutes I project for them.  KCP and Morris MPG in the projected column is their real MPG from last year.

Galloway had extremely high numbers while playing for NO.  So I ran him twice.  Galloway (Adj) is without his NO numbers since they were higher than any of the other 3 teams he played on.

It isn't labeled.  But the right side is per game projections.

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37 minutes ago, Buddha said:

some people are happy with being 8th in the east and some people think the pistons can do better than that.

I don't really watch the Pistons much unless they're good, so I guess I should be for tanking Philly-style. It's probably the easiest way to becoming a title contender. You hope the balls bounce bigly, hope you get that superstar player or a good young core over the years, and go from there.

So I guess I should root for them to lose this season. And then trade everyone for picks.

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1 hour ago, Buddha said:

some people are happy with being 8th in the east and some people think the pistons can do better than that.

Far from it.  I've agreed with you on the "tear it down and tank" idea but you've gotta admit that you tend to err on the pessimistic side of things.

I just don't see what the problem is with the Tolliver signing.  He has always performed admirably in his role and this contract is dirt cheap.

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2 hours ago, NYLion said:

Far from it.  I've agreed with you on the "tear it down and tank" idea but you've gotta admit that you tend to err on the pessimistic side of things.

I just don't see what the problem is with the Tolliver signing.  He has always performed admirably in his role and this contract is dirt cheap.

I think the Tolliver signing is "meh" all the way around.  

It just shows me they think Ellenson isn't ready to contribute and they're probably right.

If it were up to me, I would play him and see if he can develop.  Let him sink or swim because the team isn't going to compete right now and it's better to have their young players develop.  But I think SVG is under orders to compete now, so he signs a guy he is comfortable with and will play him to the detriment of his younger charges.

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I am naturally pessimistic, but if I think the team is on the right track and making good decision I say so.

I just don't think this Pistons team is going anywhere as long as they're tethered to Drummond.  And I LOVED Drummond.  I was on team drummond and team Not Greg Monroe.  I loved it when they drafted him and love his potential.  But he just hasn't gotten any better and I don't know if he ever will.  At this point I would rather let someone else pay him $23 million per year to try and find out.  

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TOlliver makes sense to me to fill out the roster. Stan likes to be deep up front and have multiple guys who can shoot. Not a needle mover or anything

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17 hours ago, NYLion said:

The Galloway deal is something to ***** about.  Still trying to understand the logic behind that move.  He can shoot threes pretty well but did they really need an expensive #3 pg?

SVG seems to feel that Galloway can serve as a PG or SG off the bench. The deal makes sense because Stan gets:

1. Better 3 point shooter than anyone we had on the roster last year.
2. Some insurance against the KCP situation (turned out this was a good idea)
3. Some insurance against a Jackson trade (turns out this is being seriously discussed)
4. A hard working and good (or at least pesky/tenacious) defender
5. A good locker room guy

His price tag is too high if you think he's the 3rd PG, but I don't think SVG sees it that way. After everything shakes out with the roster, I think Stan expects to see Galloway on the court backing up Ish or backing up Bradley as Kennard begins to come up to speed over the course of the year. He's also clearly trying to change the locker room chemistry and Galloway serves that purpose as well.

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16 hours ago, Buddha said:

some people are happy with being 8th in the east and some people think the pistons can do better than that.

and some of us know they could be doing a whooooole lot worse (ie, the 8 seasons prior to SVG)

 

 

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The defense definitely can improve relative to last season. If Galloway can help there that would be big. 

If reggie is traded, that probably makes ish the starting PG and Galloway the backup, right? 

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12 minutes ago, Shelton said:

If reggie is traded, that probably makes ish the starting PG and Galloway the backup, right? 

Unless another PG comes back in the trade, but I'm sure even SVG doesn't know what a deal for Reggie would look like right now, so he's covering himself from multiple angles. That's what it looks like to me anyway.

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4 minutes ago, Betrayer said:

Unless another PG comes back in the trade, but I'm sure even SVG doesn't know what a deal for Reggie would look like right now, so he's covering himself from multiple angles. That's what it looks like to me anyway.

It seems to me that if Reggie is traded, it will be to a team that doesn't have a decent PG, so it seems unlikely that a PG better than ish would be coming back, right?

What does an ideal reggie trade look like? An expiring contract for a 4? 

Could you somehow trade both Reggie and Drummond in separate deals, where you end up getting a center and pg?

i think the current roster can work because there has been enough turnover from last year that the pieces could fit together better. It would just be nice to have more flexibility to make changes in the next offseason if the team really struggles. 

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