RedRamage

Norris = Bonderman?

59 posts in this topic

Obviously this is just my amateur opinion here... just a thought I had while watching the game last night and wondering others thoughts:

Bonderman often seemed to go really well for a while and then something would happen: bad call on a ball/strike... miss-play in the field... a lucky hit that landed in just the right spot to avoid defenders... just a little something and he'd just sort of mentally lose it and fall apart.

That appears to be the same thing that Norris is going through.  He'd got great stuff and he knows how to pitch.  He looked fantastic last night for the first two innings, then "something" happened and it started to fall apart... a bunt that should have been an out... a wild pitch, a borderline call that went against him that was followed up by a run scoring hit.

I hope that Norris can work through this because the Tigers really need him to be a front of the order guy for the coming years and he clearly has the stuff to do it.  But he needs to get through the mental issues that are blocking him right now.

Further discussion: What do you think would be better for Norris?  To remain up here in the Majors or send the rest of the season in the Minors?  

On one hand you could say spending time in the minor would help his confidence if he pitches well there.  And if he's mostly dealing with mental issues that might be just the thing he needs.  But on the other hand, I think it was Craig Monroe during last nights game who said that a stint in the minors isn't going to help him because he needs to learn how to pitch against guys who won't chase bad pitches or who will wait for the pitch they want to see.

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I don't really think they are comparable. 

I don't really remember bonderman falling apart when things started to go wrong. But I will also say that what appears to be a guy falling apart mentally could simply be a series of fluky plays that have little to do with the pitcher's mindset. 

The "thing" I remember about bonderman was that he had those first inning struggles for a period of time. That's kind of the opposite of what appears to be happening with Norris. 

Bonderman was becoming a stud before his injury and botched surgery. He was pretty good in 2006 and was great in the first half of 2007 and was still only 24. He was never the same after the injury. 

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30 minutes ago, Shelton said:

Bonderman was becoming a stud before his injury and botched surgery. He was pretty good in 2006 and was great in the first half of 2007 and was still only 24. He was never the same after the injury. 

Yeah - Funny to compare him to Norris because Bondo was so laid back and stoic both on an off the field - he never seem bothered or complained about being left to lose 19 or really even complained much about the botched surgery (there was only a single story where is was ever discussed in detail that I remember, and who knows if it was correct, though it matched up well enough, which said they damaged a major nerve. That far up your arm that would take at least 18 month to heal (1/2" per month to regrow an axon and it can just stop at any time and that's where you are left).  And walked away from the game with little apparent regret. I guess he made a bit of an attempt a comeback a couple of years later (in Seattle's MiLB system?)

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19 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

Yeah - Funny to compare him to Norris because Bondo was so laid back and stoic both on an off the field - he never seem bothered or complained about being left to lose 19 or really even complained much about the botched surgery (there was only a single story where is was ever discussed in detail that I remember, and who knows if it was correct, though it matched up well enough, which said they damaged a major nerve. That far up your arm that would take at least 18 month to heal (1/2" per month to regrow an axon and it can just stop at any time and that's where you are left).  And walked away from the game with little apparent regret. I guess he made a bit of an attempt a comeback a couple of years later (in Seattle's MiLB system?)

Did you completely forget about bonderman's heroic return to the Tigers in the dog days of 2013?

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33 minutes ago, Shelton said:

Did you completely forget about bonderman's heroic return to the Tigers in the dog days of 2013?

I guess. 16 IP in relief. Does sort almost ring a bell but I had completely forgotten he stopped by here on his way out the door after he started back with Seattle.

2013, those were the days......

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Jeremy Bonderman is one of the greatest Tigers of all time and he led the team to the World Series with "Mr. Snappy" the world's greatest slider. Also, it was easy to typo his name as Bonerman, which was fun. Let's not get too hasty in comparing Daniel Norris to that level of greatness. 

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I wouldn't mind seeing Norris take a stint in the bullpen. Nothing necessarily permanent, but I think giving him some short stints where he can go higher intensity with a higher focus would help him.

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5 minutes ago, Who is the Drizzle? said:

I wouldn't mind seeing Norris take a stint in the bullpen. Nothing necessarily permanent, but I think giving him some short stints where he can go higher intensity with a higher focus would help him.

Chicago started Sale out as reliever his first MLB season - didn't seem to hurt him any. Norris is a little past his 'breaking in' effects though. But yeah - he needs more IP to figure out what he is doing. A month or the rest of this season at lower stress level might pay long term dividends with him. At least it would get him away from ace pitching developers Ausmus and Dubey.

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7 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

Chicago started Sale out as reliever his first MLB season - didn't seem to hurt him any. Norris is a little past his 'breaking in' effects though. But yeah - he needs more IP to figure out what he is doing. A month or the rest of this season at lower stress level might pay long term dividends with him. At least it would get him away from ace pitching developers Ausmus and Dubey.

Someone else had proposed that idea earlier, looking at what KC did with Duffy. Duffy seems like a somewhat reasonable comp for Norris.

I don't take any issue with Ausmus and Dubey. The only guy that hasn't met expectations for me is Greene. Boyd has never had the stuff, Norris has never had the command, JV has been his own (and very successful) cat. JWil and Fulmer have developed well, everyone else is what they are.

Hopefully next season with Caesar in full effect for a year, whoever the coaches are won't be working as blind compared to other teams.

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I don't think moving Norris to the bullpen at this point makes a lot of sense. If he is still struggling a year from now, then maybe he just moves there permanently. 

I think he is best served by throwing every five days and figuring out how to be effective for 100 pitches. That can be done in Toledo if he is failing in MLB. We have other options that can pitch starters innings and not embarrass themselves doing so. 

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Once we lose to SF today and start trading pieces, Norris will need to stay in the rotation to learn how to deal with it.  I still think he has the make-up to be a number 2 or 3 starter. 

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3 minutes ago, Shelton said:

I don't think moving Norris to the bullpen at this point makes a lot of sense. If he is still struggling a year from now, then maybe he just moves there permanently. 

I think he is best served by throwing every five days and figuring out how to be effective for 100 pitches. That can be done in Toledo if he is failing in MLB. We have other options that can pitch starters innings and not embarrass themselves doing so. 

If you believe that some of his issues are mental, I don't think Toledo will help him much with that. I'd like to seem him attack MLB hitters with his best stuff for a couple innings at a time. I think that would give him some confidence and show him that (if) his stuff actually works against MLB hitters.

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Duffy had been in the majors for four seasons and had 80 starts (with a year lost to injury) before he was moved to the bullpen at the end of 2015 after struggling. 

He started 2016 in the bullpen, but then moved back to the rotation. He started throwing his secondary pitches much harder, with more a power slider than a slow curveball.

drew smyly is another example. I wonder whether pitching out of the pen in 2013 and then throwing 150 innings in 2014 had anything to do with getting hurt in 2015. I wonder then if throwing 175 innings in 2016 had anything to do with getting hurt prior to this season. 

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1 minute ago, Who is the Drizzle? said:

If you believe that some of his issues are mental, I don't think Toledo will help him much with that. I'd like to seem him attack MLB hitters with his best stuff for a couple innings at a time. I think that would give him some confidence and show him that (if) his stuff actually works against MLB hitters.

Maybe. I don't know if his issues are mental, physical, or both. My guess would be both.

He knows his stuff can get MLB hitters out. He did it for two innings yesterday.

i don't know the answer. Your theory could very well be right. I think I would rather he pitch more innings. Once the Tigers are fully out of it and the guys have been traded, he can pitch in Detroit again. 

Going to Toledo for a break or retooling can work though. It helped with porcello and scherzer. 

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2 minutes ago, Shelton said:

Duffy had been in the majors for four seasons and had 80 starts (with a year lost to injury) before he was moved to the bullpen at the end of 2015 after struggling. 

He started 2016 in the bullpen, but then moved back to the rotation. He started throwing his secondary pitches much harder, with more a power slider than a slow curveball.

drew smyly is another example. I wonder whether pitching out of the pen in 2013 and then throwing 150 innings in 2014 had anything to do with getting hurt in 2015. I wonder then if throwing 175 innings in 2016 had anything to do with getting hurt prior to this season. 

I don't think injuries would be a consideration. At any rate, if they are out of it in a few weeks, they could do a lot of things. Piggyback him with Boyd, for example. I don't think Norris needs a teardown at all, just something a little different.

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2 minutes ago, Shelton said:

Maybe. I don't know if his issues are mental, physical, or both. My guess would be both.

He knows his stuff can get MLB hitters out. He did it for two innings yesterday.

i don't know the answer. Your theory could very well be right. I think I would rather he pitch more innings. Once the Tigers are fully out of it and the guys have been traded, he can pitch in Detroit again. 

Going to Toledo for a break or retooling can work though. It helped with porcello and scherzer. 

That reminds me of some rumor I read somewhere--it might have actually been sportz--that Max went in the video after he was pulled in the game he got thrashed, and figured out what he was doing wrong before the game was over. He got sent down anyway and dominated Toledo for 2 starts, but if you believe that he had already figured it out. The rest, as we know, is history.

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1 minute ago, Who is the Drizzle? said:

I don't think injuries would be a consideration. At any rate, if they are out of it in a few weeks, they could do a lot of things. Piggyback him with Boyd, for example. I don't think Norris needs a teardown at all, just something a little different.

I think injuries should be a very big consideration. It's just hard to know whether anything in particular actually led to an injury or if it was just coincidence. 

Sending Norris to the pen for a month could be fine. It worked for Duffy. I just personally prefer for those types of moves to be made at the end of a season rather than in the middle, because then you have to waste time building the stamina back up. 

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3 minutes ago, Who is the Drizzle? said:

That reminds me of some rumor I read somewhere--it might have actually been sportz--that Max went in the video after he was pulled in the game he got thrashed, and figured out what he was doing wrong before the game was over. He got sent down anyway and dominated Toledo for 2 starts, but if you believe that he had already figured it out. The rest, as we know, is history.

Yes, Max claimed that he figured it out didn't need to go to Toledo. In retrospect being there still might have been a factor in getting to work. Who can say hindsight?

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Just now, Shelton said:

I think injuries should be a very big consideration. It's just hard to know whether anything in particular actually led to an injury or if it was just coincidence. 

Sending Norris to the pen for a month could be fine. It worked for Duffy. I just personally prefer for those types of moves to be made at the end of a season rather than in the middle, because then you have to waste time building the stamina back up. 

If I were going to do it right now, I would probably keep him in the bullpen until we fall out of contention. It'd be a move that'd potentially help the team, as he's our worst starter right now but could in theory help the pen. If we fall out, we can work him into the rotation slowly if wanted.

I think shutting him down here for 10 days is fine too. There's no real rush on sending him to the pen as far as his development goes, so doing it later on in the season so that he finishes in the pen is fine by me too.

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A few more notes on Norris. It doesn't look like he has exceeded 150 IP in a season yet. I would like to see him get up to 170 this year. 

Also, his walk rate is very high, and his babip is also very high. That seems to indicate that he struggles to command his pitches. That seems like something he could work to improve in Toledo. 

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I think with Norris you just have a lot going on. He has changed his delivery to try and settle down all the extra body motion and finish over his feet. He needs innings. And I guess I was unclear above, but I agree with Shelton that having those inning be under less pressure=having them be in AAA if needed. Or alternately, the the Tigers clearly punt the rest of the season at the break, then it would matter less if he stays here.

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3 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

Yes, Max claimed that he figured it out didn't need to go to Toledo. In retrospect being there still might have been a factor in getting to work. Who can say hindsight?

He was so talented, he probably would have been fine either way. Porcello probably didn't need it either (but the Tigers needed the service time stopped for a few weeks).

In an alternative universe, max stays up, and even though he identified the problem, he has a rough outing the next time out and tries something else, and he screws himself up and never becomes a cy young winner. 

In the case of porcello, he never goes down, he hits free agency after 2014 and isn't traded for cespedes and Fulmer is pitching for the mets.

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Bonderman developed into a successful SP until the injury, so I can't say Norris is anything like that. At least not yet. 

I'd sooner equate Norris to Randy O'Neal, or Steve Searcy.  But hopefully there is still a chance that he turns out better than these guys. 

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12 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Who is comparible to Felipe Lira?

Victor Santos, Seth McClung, Julio Santana, Brian Williams, Frankie Rodriguez, Bob McGraw, Bill Trottier, Jose Silva, Kirk Sarloos, Joe Cascarella,.....  These are just a few of the names that come to mind (and after reading the similarity scores on Lira's bbref page).

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