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Casimir

07/03/2017 Day of Mourning

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39 minutes ago, Who is the Drizzle? said:

G2 claims to love JV, but he's certainly been his most consistent, harshest critic.

As far as "waste of physical talent," if you go by that now there's a lot of pitchers that have more physical talent than JV. ****, Norris probably has more. Weird criticism.

I guess that is true. I think he was born with a millennial arm. There really has been no starter who could throw a better fastball since Nolan Ryan. And no, I don't agree Norris has more physical talent than JV. Even this yr at 34, Verlander can throw a sharper curve and a better swing and miss FB than Norris. His endurance is not what it was, but look at the WHIP. Even at 33 he let fewer men on the bases than anyone in the league, and probably would have led by more if his manager were not a moron.  Most pitchers age like Anibal, they lose their top end and then then their secondaries are not as good either because the batter has more time. At that point they either compensate by developing a better sense of reading hitters, or by having their command improve (which often happens with the years of repetition) , or if not their careers run down. That does not appear to be what is happening to JV this year. His command and spin are now erratic, which is usually a young man's problem, while he can still throw 95-97 all day, which is rare indeed in 34 yr old starters.

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3 hours ago, tiger337 said:

There will be interest in Verlander, but I don't think the Tigers will get much for him given his contract and his control problems.  They are probably better off keeping him.

I agree. Of course, we don't know their books and we have no control over anything they do. But I would like to see Verlander and Cabrera retire as Tigers.

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1 minute ago, Gehringer_2 said:

I guess that is true. I think he was born with a millennial arm. There really has been no starter who could throw a better fastball since Nolan Ryan. And no, I don't agree Norris has more physical talent than JV. Even this yr at 34, Verlander can throw a sharper curve and a better swing and miss FB than Norris. His endurance is not what it was, but look at the WHIP. Even at 33 he let fewer men on the bases than anyone in the league, and probably would have led by more if his manager were not a moron.  Most pitchers age like Anibal, they lose their top end and then then their secondaries are not as good either because the batter has more time. At that point they either compensate by developing a better sense of reading hitters, or by having their command improve (which often happens with the years of repetition) , or if not or their careers run down. That does not appear to be what is happening to JV. His command is now erratic, which is usually a young man's problem, while he can still throw 95-97 all day, which is rare indeed in 34 yr old starters.

i would think most 34 y/o pitchers w/o command don't make it to 34 in MLB. so i don't think that's an unbiased sampling.

but i think there are a lot of guys that can throw as hard as JV and a lot of guys that spin off a breaker as well as JV. It's more of a skill that he's developed to throw everything out of the same keyhole and develop command of all his pitches.

he's not so gifted that he can just dominate based on pure physical ability like clayton kershaw or chris sale. not anymore. when it's off.....well i'm not sure you can waste something that's not there.

i agree his arm is kind of unique in that he can throw so many innings for so long at high velocity. but plenty of guys who throw hard have failed.

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On 7/3/2017 at 11:34 PM, Gehringer_2 said:

I guess that is true. I think he was born with a millennial arm. There really has been no starter who could throw a better fastball since Nolan Ryan. And no, I don't agree Norris has more physical talent than JV. Even this yr at 34, Verlander can throw a sharper curve and a better swing and miss FB than Norris. His endurance is not what it was, but look at the WHIP. Even at 33 he let fewer men on the bases than anyone in the league, and probably would have led by more if his manager were not a moron.  Most pitchers age like Anibal, they lose their top end and then then their secondaries are not as good either because the batter has more time. At that point they either compensate by developing a better sense of reading hitters, or by having their command improve (which often happens with the years of repetition) , or if not their careers run down. That does not appear to be what is happening to JV this year. His command and spin are now erratic, which is usually a young man's problem, while he can still throw 95-97 all day, which is rare indeed in 34 yr old starters.

Yes, I agree with this....the core surgery was a huge success for JV, and despite nine gazillion innings/pitches, he's still slinging it like a 22 year old.  There's no decline in this guy at this point.  He could be lights out the rest of 2017 if he could get his mechanics straight again.

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Three thoughts:

1. JV absolutely has a ton of physical talent.  Not sure how one could argue he doesn't,

2. jake was a much bigger JV critic than G2.

3. Power pitchers often have a down year in their early to mid 30's and recover to be very good until their late 30's.

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1 hour ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

3. Power pitchers often have a down year in their early to mid 30's and recover to be very good until their late 30's.

let hope - unless he is with someone else! (well if he goes to the national league we can root for him - maybe)

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36 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

let hope - unless he is with someone else! (well if he goes to the national league we can root for him - maybe)

The verlander thing reminds me a lot of Roger Clemons. Of course, Clemons left Boston as a free agent and signed with Toronto. But he was probably a guy that Boston fans hoped would remain in Boston for his entire career. He became one of boston's most hated players. 

Had clemons gone to a team outside of the AL east, it's probably a different story. 

If verlander is traded at the deadline, it will be easy to root for him this season if he ends up with an NL team. If he ends up being traded again to the Indians or something, or has a resurgence and signs with the Indians or another AL team in 2020 and pitches well against the tigers for years, I imagine that many Detroit fans won't remember him that fondly. 

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