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1 hour ago, Shelton said:

We don't know how involved he was in the trades of price and cespedes. For all we know he identified and suggested the guys we got back, all of whom have performed well enough.

I recall that he said he did handle the deal for Jacoby. 

His trades for krod and j wilson were both good. 

That's kind of why I said visible.  He might have identified those return pieces, but we don't know how involved he was.

The deals for Rodriguez and WilsonJ were pretty good, that's a good point.

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10 minutes ago, Casimir said:

That's kind of why I said visible.  He might have identified those return pieces, but we don't know how involved he was.

The deals for Rodriguez and WilsonJ were pretty good, that's a good point.

I guess all I was trying to say was that there hasn't really been anything visible to suggest that he couldn't make good moves for a rebuild. And the possibility that he helped substantially with those other deals, which I think is likely, should at least be viewed as a positive factor. 

The fact is he hasn't been in this position yet. Brian Cashman hasn't really been in that position before last season, and was typically at the other extreme most years, yet he killed it when he traded chapman and Miller and Beltran. 

 

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I can't get over their inability to make simple plays. It's like every ball they have to pick up in the OF or throw across the diamond is greased or something. Or IOW, when a whole team is affected you wonder about whether they are all just too tight right now maybe. The bench seems to look OK on the telecasts, but you probably only get a shot when someone is smiling about something. Has Ausmus gotten into a rut now that he has been managing for a while where he is forgetting to work hard enough at keeping his team loose?

You also have to wonder if the Venezuelans are being affected by worry and that is spilling over into the clubhouse. The clip of that message that the group of Tigers and Rangers taped for broadcast there (read by Cabrera) was certainly (and rightfully so) a group of unhappy campers. If that is a problem,  I don't now what anyone short of the US Marines can do to fix it.

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3 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

I can't get over their inability to make simple plays. It's like every ball they have to pick up in the OF or throw across the diamond is greased or something. Or IOW, when a whole team is affected you wonder about whether they are all just too tight right now maybe. The bench seems to look OK on the telecasts, but you probably only get a shot when someone is smiling about something. Has Ausmus gotten into a rut now that he has been managing for a while where he is forgetting to work hard enough at keeping his team loose?

I think it's confirmation bias. What did leyland say? When you're winning, you've got a great clubhouse. 

I think the defensive gaffes are a product of players that just aren't great defensively.  

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6 minutes ago, Shelton said:

I think it's confirmation bias. What did leyland say? When you're winning, you've got a great clubhouse. 

I think the defensive gaffes are a product of players that just aren't great defensively.  

Maybe - but in Nick's case we've seen him play much better, and Upton is usually pretty reliable but he's muffed a bunch this week. I'm sure that it is also true that losing makes a clubhouse less resistant to outside distractions becoming magnified so there is a bit of chicken and egg aspect to all of it.

And for this team maybe double. They know that they have an even shorter window than the final standings to get their act together before deadline decisions have to be made - so another source of pressure.

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2 minutes ago, Shelton said:

I think it's confirmation bias. What did leyland say? When you're winning, you've got a great clubhouse. 

I think the defensive gaffes are a product of players that just aren't great defensively.  

Yeah, I mean the Rangers middle infielders made some bad errors against us. Kiermeyer's contacts are causing him to miss flyballs and allow inside the park home runs on grounders. It happens.

Our defense as a whole has graded out as aboverage so that's a win for me. Nick is struggling and some of the role players have made some mistakes, but that's about it.

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58 minutes ago, kdog said:

New rules for comp picks

Consider the case of J.D. Martinez, who has been arguably the planet's hottest hitter since returning from the disabled list a little more than one week ago. He will be eligible for free agency in November. And if Detroit's payroll ends the season at or above $195 million, the best it can get in return from Martinez -- should he reject a qualifying offer and sign elsewhere -- is a pick after the fourth round.

So barring a change to the team's payroll structure, general manager Al Avila can't tell his counterparts that he's prepared to hold onto Martinez for the purpose of collecting a high pick in the 2018 MLB Draft. The Tigers' payroll is too large for him to do so. And that is yet another consideration at Trade Deadline 2017 that never mattered much before.

Yeah, this was a big change to the free agency compensation rule and when it happened it was clear that the Tigers were going to feel the effects of it. 

It is one of the reasons I was not too opposed to selling in this past offseason to see if they could do enough to get under the tax in the event they held JD all year. But going from a first round sandwich pick to a fourth round sandwich pick is not enough of a factor to give up a contending season.

i forget how much we would have needed to cut. I thought that maybe trading Kinsler and krod and maybin, and eating money on pelfrey and Sanchez, could have gotten them close. But in the end I don't think those deals were there. 

Another factor of the new cba is that a player can't be offered a QO twice in their career. It wasn't clear if that is retroactive, but I think it is, and that will mean that we can't offer upton a QO if he opts out. But that's not a huge deal because at best we would get that fourth rounder. 

As for the new cba affecting Avila's ability to negotiate, I don't buy it. JD will be attractive to a lot of teams, and as long as more than one team is interested, that's enough leverage to get the right deal. Being able to say you will just take the comp pick isn't a huge factor when the offers are going to be better than the value of a comp pick. 

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23 minutes ago, Shelton said:

I think it's confirmation bias. What did leyland say? When you're winning, you've got a great clubhouse. 

I think the defensive gaffes are a product of players that just aren't great defensively.  

They had pretty poor defense most years during Leyland's tenure too.  

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I remember when they first cracked down on amphetamine use, I read that some players thought it would have an effect in terms of increased base running and defensive mistakes.  I wonder if this has actually happened, not just with the Tigers, but around baseball.  

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9 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

They had pretty poor defense most years during Leyland's tenure too.  

IDK. Objectively, capability/skill wise, player by player I like this team a lot, but they get on the field and too often perform as less than the sum of their parts. Coming out of spring I wouldn't have bet they would be under 500 right now so I'm at a point where results are forcing me to re-calibrate my expectations.

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1 minute ago, Gehringer_2 said:

IDK. Objectively, capability/skill wise, player by player I like this team a lot, but they get on the field and too often perform as less than the sum of their parts. Coming out of spring I wouldn't have bet they would be under 500 right now so I'm at a point where I'm trying to re calibrate my expectations.

I think the parts are not performing well.  The sum seems about right.  

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Just now, tiger337 said:

I think the parts are not performing well.  The sum seems about right.  

But you were more pessimistic about them all along than I have been.

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Just now, Gehringer_2 said:

But you were more pessimistic about them all along than I have been.

I have not been pessimistic at all.  I predicted 86 wins before the season started.  I think they have quite a few players not meeting my expectations and almost no regulars exceeding them.  Thus they are not on a pace for 86 wins.  

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12 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

I have not been pessimistic at all.  I predicted 86 wins before the season started.  I think they have quite a few players not meeting my expectations and almost no regulars exceeding them.  Thus they are not on a pace for 86 wins.  

you missed the "than I have been". I came out of Spring thinking 86 would be a major disappointment for this team - Liked the pitching staff a lot, but it's been up and down. Thought they would have cut bait sooner on Anibal and gotten more help from Toledo than they have so far. Have been disappointed in JVs tinkering. Nick has stepped back, Thought they had solidified CF but they are leaving Jones and his 7 game hitting streak in Toledo.

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I think t is far too early to quit.  I would like to see them recognize the defense stinks and bring back Jones to center and Collins jettisoned. I think Victor is done and would prefer JD at DH and Aducci/Mahtook platoon in right..neither of which will happen,

As for Avilia and Ausmus I think their "weakness' with a "win now" team will be their "strengths" with a rebuilding team. Mainly development and patience. Neither seems capable of managing change quickly required of a contender..weather its a mid season pick up to help or when to change a pitcher out.

Anyway this is out team and we need a Hot Upton, Normal Miggy , something from Casty and some consistency from Norris and Boyd. If we get that I think we can get a wild card. And its all possible.

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8 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

you missed the "than I have been". I came out of Spring thinking 86 would be a major disappointment for this team - Liked the pitching staff a lot. Thought they would have cut bait sooner on Anibal and gotten more help from Toledo than they have so far. Have been disappointed in JVs tinkering. Nick has stepped back, Thought they had solidified CF but then are leaving Jones and his 7 game hitting streak in Toledo.

But still, the sum being worse than the parts suggests that they have played well but are just not winning games which I don't think is the case.  I think the parts have disappointed and thus the sum is not good.  

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5 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

But still, the sum being worse than the parts suggests that they have played well but are just not winning games which I don't think is the case.  I think the parts have disappointed and thus the sum is not good.  

Well I cannot disagree that you must be correct!

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I also like the pieces on this team, but their performance has not been to their apparent capabilities, it seems. It's early enough that recalibrating expectations isn't necessary yet. We've got good players playing poorly. I expect the good players to play well going forward. 

Losing these last few games in the way they have has been depressing to watch. 

If we win the next three things look a lot less dire. 

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Just now, Shelton said:

I also like the pieces on this team, but their performance has not been to their apparent capabilities, it seems. It's early enough that recalibrating expectations isn't necessary yet. We've got good players playing poorly. I expect the good players to play well going forward. 

Losing these last few games in the way they have has been depressing to watch. 

If we win the next three things look a lot less dire. 

I might not like them as much as Gehringer does, but I also like the pieces on this team.  I think they have enough talent to contend for a playoff spot, but so far too many players are disappointing.   

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7 minutes ago, Who is the Drizzle? said:

Shoulda claimed Leonys Martin.

Michael Bourn is available. 

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4 minutes ago, Shelton said:

Michael Bourn is available. 

Ha! Better than Collins, right? I do wonder how he's looked, batting .220 in AAA but a .373 OBP. Unless there's a red-flag in the scouting, seems like a no-brainer to me.

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